banjar 'building' fees

Balifrog

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Dec 30, 2017
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Mine come around once a year and want a million for the upkeep of local churches/ceremonies/fuknows and I give it and they go away happy until next year.
Sound very reasonable as "community contribution"

My Missus, who, when at home in Java is a devout Hindu (a bit less when in Bali) "contributes" 75 to 150k every month to the local Pura.
 

Balifrog

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Perhaps instead of physically taking part in all their activities?
She takes part in PLENTY ceremonies, at home, at the pura, at brother 1, 2, 3 house etc....

One of her elder brothers being deeply involved in the local Pura, she doesn't have much choice.....
 
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Shadrach

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She takes part in PLENTY ceremonies, at home, at the pura, at brother 1, 2, 3 house etc....

One of her elder brothers being deeply involved in the local Pura, she doesn't have much choice.....
Sounds so boring! But if it rocks her boat, then go for it! I personally never understood why people do this. It was never pushed in my home. My parents told me just to be honest and kind to all! They didn't tell me to be afraid of a mythical God that lives in the clouds that you cannot see, hear, or touch, but is the big boss and will punish you if don't follow a set of rules written by Man! I find it interesting all these different religions have a God or Son's of God or many different Gods, that are all somewhere but you can't see them? It seems more practical to love Mother Earth! Here you can see and feel the Sun, Rain, Wind, clouds, sky, mountains, streams, rivers,,oceans, animals, people, fire, etc. but this is up to each person to believe on their own. It's a subject like politics, best to just keep it too yourself, because no one will ever agree, and discussing it only turns into an argument!
 

harryopal1

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Questions about God can be very dangerous in many part of the world but it seems so many notions of God have God in some kind of human form which is absurd. If God has some kind of human form then what does God eat? Does God talk to him or herself? And we had better not get into what a human shaped God might do with his or her naughty bits. Perhaps earth is where God goes to urinate or defecate. And what happens in the universe if God farts?

As for creation I am content to accept that it is an unfathomable mystery. The science regarding creation and the notion that it all began with the Big Bang leaves me with the question, what was there before the Big Bang?

Of course theology can be discussed without a heated argument but unless you are sure of the disposition of the person with whom you are having the discussion the consequences might end up with the Big Bang. And probably the local Banjar is not the person to put some of these questions to while you are negotiating building fees.
 
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Balifrog

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Sounds so boring! But if it rocks her boat, then go for it! I personally never understood why people do this. It was never pushed in my home. My parents told me just to be honest and kind to all! They didn't tell me to be afraid of a mythical God that lives in the clouds that you cannot see, hear, or touch, but is the big boss and will punish you if don't follow a set of rules written by Man! I find it interesting all these different religions have a God or Son's of God or many different Gods, that are all somewhere but you can't see them? It seems more practical to love Mother Earth! Here you can see and feel the Sun, Rain, Wind, clouds, sky, mountains, streams, rivers,,oceans, animals, people, fire, etc. but this is up to each person to believe on their own. It's a subject like politics, best to just keep it too yourself, because no one will ever agree, and discussing it only turns into an argument!
Well, you could look at it from another perspective.
They keep their tradition, believes, culture, family ties, community spirit.


All things that we have lost in Europe.

One thing I often hear in Europe is, muslims are taking over, soon there will be more mosques than churches, etc....
Well, why are the churches empty ? The muslims never stopped us from going to the church. It was us, in name of progress, laicity, modernisme who decided not to go anymore.
And in the process we lost a lot of community spirit. Yes, there are plenty other raisons...
But I will never critizise a population that keeps their tradition alive.

I may not agree with the base of those traditions, but I will do all I can so that they can continue to live as they believe they should live.

Same as I continue to live, wherever I am in the world, with my old French traditions.

And with a bit of goodwill, different traditions can harmoniously live together.
 

Shadrach

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Yes your right about people having the right to follow traditions if they choose too. Just because a tradition has been established doesn't mean it's good for all. Such as FSM, male circumcision, forced to believe in a religion, forced to give money, etc. to the church, mosque, temple, etc. pressured what to consume, all of these so called traditions take away basic human rights of freedom to choose!
 
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Balifrog

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Ag
Yes your right about people having the right to follow traditions if they choose too. Just because a tradition has been established doesn't mean it's good for all. Such as FSM, male circumcision, forced to believe in a religion, forced to give money, etc. to the church, mosque, temple, etc. pressured what to consume, all of these so called traditions take away basic human rights of freedom to choose!
Agreed, BUT the day they will have full democracy, human rights, freedom of movement, speech and choice, defense of LGBT rights, the next step will be politically correct, and ultimate step the woke culture.
They will have "succeeded", they have become like the "civilized West" !

Not sure this is the right path when you see the state of our countries....

Anyway if those countries want to ch1nge their rules, it is up to them to stand up against the things you mentionned. It is sure not our role to "intervene".


Their society will change, with time. I have seen it happening in Korea and Thailand. China is in full change as well.
 

Shadrach

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Ag

Agreed, BUT the day they will have full democracy, human rights, freedom of movement, speech and choice, defense of LGBT rights, the next step will be politically correct, and ultimate step the woke culture.
They will have "succeeded", they have become like the "civilized West" !

Not sure this is the right path when you see the state of our countries....

Anyway if those countries want to ch1nge their rules, it is up to them to stand up against the things you mentionned. It is sure not our role to "intervene".


Their society will change, with time. I have seen it happening in Korea and Thailand. China is in full change as well.
I'm glad you agree that people have the right to choose their own path! But the way you said it was confusing. You made it sound like freedom could be a bad thing! You are right about no one should intervene. People have to see how they are living in their own homes and ask themselves is this how I want to live? A long time ago smart people said that religion should not be a part of schools, and the government. I agree! It is an individuals choice about their religious beliefs, sexual preferences, the right to provide for their families, etc. no one should be forced to pay homage to their religious institutions if they don't have enough to provide a good life for their families.
Whatever peoples choice is how they want to live is OK as long as it doesn't bring harm to the planet, and other people around them. All I am trying to express is everyone deserves basic human rights, of freedom, a home, clean water, air, food, and housing! If they want to join others in following a religion, then that is their right.

I am afraid of the current political atmosphere in the world today! Too many tyrants and Dictators!
 

Balifrog

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I'm glad you agree that people have the right to choose their own path! But the way you said it was confusing. You made it sound like freedom could be a bad thing! You are right about no one should intervene. People have to see how they are living in their own homes and ask themselves is this how I want to live? A long time ago smart people said that religion should not be a part of schools, and the government. I agree! It is an individuals choice about their religious beliefs, sexual preferences, the right to provide for their families, etc. no one should be forced to pay homage to their religious institutions if they don't have enough to provide a good life for their families.
Whatever peoples choice is how they want to live is OK as long as it doesn't bring harm to the planet, and other people around them. All I am trying to express is everyone deserves basic human rights, of freedom, a home, clean water, air, food, and housing! If they want to join others in following a religion, then that is their right.

I am afraid of the current political atmosphere in the world today! Too many tyrants and Dictators!
Well, I partially agree with you but not completely.

Democracy for instance can't work in many countries. Take Africa for instance, France has been pushing hard for those countries to become democratic. But most of those countries have different ethinicities, tribes, religion. As Africans tend to vote for somebody of their tribe, ethnicity or religion, the largest ethnicity will always win, leaving the others abandoned and 2nd class citizens.

The origin of this is simply that when the Western colonial powers (France, U.K., Germany, Portugal...) decided to cut up Africa in new countries it was done with a complete disregard with the above criteria. Hence certain ethnicities ended up being split 70% in one country the remaining 30% in another. Moreover, nomads who used to roam across the continent since ages certainly now were stopped by borders.

Take Mali for example, the North is populated by nomad Touareg (Arabs), the South by a black Central African majority. You organize election the South will always win. Worse the fact of having done a "democratic" election officializes legally that they can now rule the North as they want. As long as they were a French colony they were held together (more or less forcefully..), but as soon they got independence the tribal / ethnicity problems started.

Don't forget that Taiwan (now a High Tech economy had it first democratic election in 1996 only ! South Korea, another economic giant has their first democratic election after the 1987 mass protests.

Freedom of speech, human rights, choice of religion requires first to have a properly educated population. Then sending the best students overseas for them to discover that there exist "other ways". Up to them then to decide to bring it back to their home country or not.

Another example : Afghanistan, one has to be a completely ignorant dreamer to think we could transform a deeply religious, traditional country into a "modern democracy"....

Because before building a school for girls, what about asking the vote of the father first ?

OK, enough phylosophy for a Sunday.
 

Markit

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Living here in a "decolonized" country it's often enlightening when trying to figure out what the feck the locals are trying to do with their strange regulations and laws to remember some of their motivation, either consciously or un, refers back to that time in their history when they didn't have free choice and many of the legal and religious decisions were taken by their lords and masters the Dutch.

For instance the land ownership laws or the recent outcry from the world about banning unmarried people staying in a hotel together.

I also often wonder if there was a secret ballot how many Africans would vote for a return of the Overlords from the west?
 

Balifrog

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I also often wonder if there was a secret ballot how many Africans would vote for a return of the Overlords from the west?
Not many IMO, but they may vote for the Russians or Chinese !

The reason is simple, the Russians and Chinese speak business. They don't start the negociations by giving lessons on human rights, liberty of expression, democracy and God forbid, the LGBT rights.....
Those countries are fed up with the West telling how to behave.

Two examples :
Recently Niger told the US to move their troops out of the country. The US send a delegation over to negociate, delegation is made.of mid level US official but they ask to speak to the leader of the Niger government. Who of course has them received by a mid level official...
First thing the Americans start with is "when are you going to hand over the power to a democratically elected civil government ?"
FFS, how stupid can one be.... Needless to say the meeting went badly, and the Americans went home with an earfull.

Another one :
Two years ago France decided to create an "Ambassador for LGBT rights" ...
As the simple idea of this was not silly enough, the first mission they send him to Cameroun, a Muslim country .... Needless to say Cameroun "declined" his visit and declared him "persona non grata"

I mean all those people at the top of our governments have been to the best universities are supposed to be smart, but they permanently come up with ideas that are completely idiotic.
 
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Shadrach

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Not many IMO, but they may vote for the Russians or Chinese !

The reason is simple, the Russians and Chinese speak business. They don't start the negociations by giving lessons on human rights, liberty of expression, democracy and God forbid, the LGBT rights.....
Those countries are fed up with the West telling how to behave.

Two examples :
Recently Niger told the US to move their troops out of the country. The US send a delegation over to negociate, delegation is made.of mid level US official but they ask to speak to the leader of the Niger government. Who of course has them received by a mid level official...
First thing the Americans start with is "when are you going to hand over the power to a democratically elected civil government ?"
FFS, how stupid can one be.... Needless to say the meeting went badly, and the Americans went home with an earfull.

Another one :
Two years ago France decided to create an "Ambassador for LGBT rights" ...
As the simple idea of this was not silly enough, the first mission they send him to Cameroun, a Muslim country .... Needless to say Cameroun "declined" his visit and declared him "persona non grata"

I mean all those people at the top of our governments have been to the best universities are supposed to be smart, but they permanently come up with ideas that are completely idiotic.
This topic really has you going! You praise how the Russians and Chinese focus on business and not basic human rights! What about how the people of these countries have to live in fear of reprisal, if they speak out against their Communists governments and somehow end up in prison or just disappear? And why have you got so much animosity against LGBT rights? Why does this push your button so much?

This is a personal matter which should be left to each person and not pushed in Schools, or other public platforms! The same with religion and politics! Why don't we all relax and have a nice meal of French food?
 

Balifrog

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1) This topic really has you going! You praise how the Russians and Chinese focus on business and not basic human rights! What about how the people of these countries have to live in fear of reprisal, if they speak out against their Communists governments and somehow end up in prison or just disappear
Hmmmm, I don't judge other countries system.
But I objectively note that
- Russia between 1999 and 2020 advanced a lot economically and structurally. Proof is all the "middle class Russian" we see around now. Their agriculture has increased.a lot.
Salaries and pensions have improved.
- China has pulled 100's of millions of people out of poverty and into a new " middle class".
And the political system may be communist, but be assured that Chinese society at every level is capitalistic. There is only one God in China : Money !

Yes there is a price to pay if you want to do in 1 generation wgat other countries did in 3.
2) And why have you got so much animosity against LGBT rights? Why does this push your button so much?

This is a personal matter which should be left to each person and not pushed in Schools, or other public platforms! The same with religion and politics! Why don't we all relax and have a nice meal of French food?
I have no anymosity, anybody can have the sex life he wants, however pervert it may seems to others.
But don't come shouting in the street that it is "normal" as it is not. It is against nature and against every religion.
And FFS dont try to brainwash our kids on TV, in shool or other "educationnal courses".

Keep it simple like in the 70's . Rock and Roll, beer, sex, throw the bra away, and a bit of weed.
 
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