bali - hell or heaven

[matahari]

I think that what will decide if bali is hell :evil: or heaven is how you get along with the local comunity and also how you adapt to the very different system/culture!

for most open minded people bali is heaven, but I think you should consider to come and stay in bali for a couple of months and get the feeling of the bali lifestyle before you move there for longer term.

most certainly you will find bali as many others - a magical and a for sure special place on earth

 

[matahari]

as you can see I`m a newbie and I posted this msg wrong... was ment like a post reply rather then a new topic

is there any way for me to delete or edit my already posted topics/replies?

 

[Bert Vierstra]

No, you can't delete or edit your messages.... but its a good new topic !

 

[Roy]

Greetings to Norway! And don't worry about messing up a post, as I do it all the time!

You are right on about Bali...it can be heaven, and it can indeed be hell.

Also, we are in total agreement to "learn to walk before attempting to run" in Bali. One has to be able to "park their logic" and ignore the genes which produced what they deem "common sense" to get on here for many years.

It's not easy, considering the narcotic effect Bali can have. Years later, I still find myself in a New Yorker rage over some absolutely stupid thing that frustrates me right back into that New York oblivion.

Thank the Gods I have my loving Balinese wife, and her entire family that know how to calm me down, exorcize the beast within me, and restore calm and balance.

 

[matahari]

interesting what you said about the "narcotic effect bali can have"

When I came to Bali for the first time in -98 something happend to me, I`v discovered a new lifestyle, climate and culture that fasinated me in a "can not explain in words kind of way" and I felt truly free, all my day to day problems from back home came in to another percpective and alot of my material thinking melted and I basicly become a changed person. Bali made me feel harmony and happiness in a way i never felt before.

I was there for only a month that time but since then I`v been coming back as often my tiny pocket alowed me to, and stayed longer and longer each time. and every time I had to leave bali and go back to sweden I did so sorrow, and time spent away from bali was a constant reminder of some sort of lack in my life as the happines wasn`t given to me in another place then in bali. last year I stayed in bali for 8 months and in September I will wrap up my life in scandinavia and go to bali for long term.

with some fear and alot of hope I look forward to my new life as "balineese"

 

[Roy]

with some fear and alot of hope I look forward to my new life as "balineese

Amigo, THAT will NEVER happen. You could live here for hundreds of years, BUT you, nor I, nor any other expat that calls Bali home can, or should EVER call themself "Balinese."

For sure, you can assimilate, even to becoming a member of your village Banjar...but you will never be "Balinese."

The best we can hope for is to advance on the learning curve, be accepted by our Banjar, and eventually, when dead, cremated in the Banjar cemetary...just like a Balinese. What does this mean? It means simply that you were accepted, loved, admired and respected...a real contributor to your local Banjar. And...the Gods willing, you might just be reincarnated as a "real Balinese."

 

[matahari]

I suspected that kind of response...

It was more ment like a joke then something disrecpectfull to the people of bali.

well it all depend of how you think.
for example... a person from jugoslavia moves to sweden he live and work there for 10years... is he moraly,legaly entitled to call himself a swede? the answer is yes.

in bali it may be more complex , but people in general all over the world is occupied of boundaries.

Like I`v experienced in bali, a person from java can have a hard time getting accepted in bali (vice verca) and will not be looked upon as an equal even thou he is from the same country... ofcourse this is a global behavior and a question of culture, still think indonesia is kind of extreme in this mather

 

[Roy]

a person from jugoslavia moves to sweden he live and work there for 10years... is he moraly,legaly entitled to call himself a swede? the answer is yes.

Sorry to hear that the Swedes abdicate their culture so readily to foreigners, and other cultures. That will never happen in Bali, even with a Tamu, or Bule who is eventually granted Indonesian citizenship.

Balinese is Balinese, and even being one-half Balinese, as in the case of my three sons…that’s really tough too. My boy’s acceptance, as Balinese, will depend greatly on how they are raised, and how they are educated. So far, so good. As the years pass, it will be up to them to make their choices…a choice their dad never had, or could have. I not only accept this fact, I endorse it with vigor.

 

[Bert Vierstra]

Ich bin ein Berliner ! Kennedy told the Germans one day, well Roy, you can say (in the same sense):

Titiang Kaule Bali!

or in ordinary Balinese "Tiang Anak Bali!"

 

[Roy]

Actually Bert, what JFK pronounced, in German, was "I am a bagel." Ask any German who was there.

In Bali, I ain't no bagel, to be certain, and I'm not Balinese either. If anything, I guess I am Ich bin ein New Yorker!

You must have heard the old phrase before. It goes, "you can take the boy out of the Bronx, but you'll never take the Bronx out of the boy."

Hoping you and Dewi enjoyed a super Galungan...hugs for you both!

 

[matahari]

Sorry to hear that the Swedes abdicate their culture so readily to foreigners, and other cultures. That will never happen in Bali, even with a Tamu, or Bule who is eventually granted Indonesian citizenship..

this is a statement i can not understant... u make it sounds like it is something negative to accept other peoples different culture,way of life religion etc and embrace it to it`s own.

Don`t you think we all have something to learn from everybody else?

I agree with you that the swedes may not be as patriotic as balinese and that they may be a little bit to acceptant of other cultures/foreigner then they should.. it`s going to fast and it getting out of controll. that`s why sweden have a big problem with foreigners coming to live in sweden.

but the basic idea of mixing different people, culture, religon etc and live in harmony together is in my opinion a good thing... but for sure far from easy.

And that you "endorse" that your sons are not accepted as balinese even thou they are born and raised in bali (i guess) is for me a bit scary.
they are looked upon as different and that`s why they are not fully accepted... sadly this is how it works all over the world. for example it`s a massive problem in your country the US where there is more mixed people then in any other country. And it`s all about FEAR. It is peoples fear that limit`s there development.

I`m not sure if I understood you corectly, If I didn`t I appolagize.

 

[Roy]

I`m not sure if I understood you corectly, If I didn`t I appolagize.

No, you didn't understand me correctly, but that's likely because I did not elaborate the point.

What I mean about my boy's situation is that I endorse that it will be their choice when they are grown up to be either an Indonesian citizen or an American citizen. While the US does recognize dual citizenship, Indonesia does not. At age 17 they are expected to make that choice. It's the freedom to make the choice that I endorse.

As to whether or not they are regarded as Balinese by other Balinese, as I wrote, that has a lot to do with how they are raised. Currently they are being raised as Balinese. They share in all the local village activity, temple ceremonies, and speak Balinese, as well as Indonesian and English. So, as I wrote, so far, so good.

In Bali, the culture is that the woman follows the man. When a Balinese woman marries a Tamu, she is regarded as having left her village, even though she still lives in the village of her birth.

As for patriotism, that has nothing to do with why it's impossible for a foreigner to "become Balinese." Even other Indonesians who have lived in Bali for many years never become Balinese. Racism has nothing to do with it either.

As for Balinese learning from other cultures, I would have to say yes and no. I see as much negative influence by the West or Australia on the Balinese as I see positive influence.

If you can, get hold of a copy of a recent book titled Bali, Living in Two Worlds. Its a compilation of essays written by Balinese on exactly this topic. It is edited by the wonderful Swiss scholar, Urs Ramseyer. Reading the Balinese opinions on this topic will be far more enlightening than reading my opinions.

Selamat hari raya Nyepi!

 

[matahari]

okey, that gave me another view of it. and you are problably right!

I will keep my eyes open for that book.

sama sama

 

[Roy]

Okeydookey. And do get a copy of that book if you can. It is an awesome read. Selamat hari raya Nyepi!