BaliLife
Roy, it's pretty simple. You're completely obsessed with all things indonesian; anything indonesia does (often rediculous things) must have positive aspects in your eyes. You've made this clear in over 4000 postings. You love it, it's perfect, there's no problems here that need addressing and none that certainly need raising by an expat.But here's the thing roy, indonesia does have problems - big problems and big challenges. And we're here, we're not expats in angola. Nobody's ever said on here that other countries don't face similar challenges - but we're not residing in those countries.I don't feel I owe anything to Indonesia over and above what a human being owes to the community of which he/she is a member, and I certainly don't feel indebted to the point that I can't express negative opinions about what I see. For any person here with children to an indonesian spouse, our kids are as indonesian as are yours roy, so we have every right to knock to shit, the stupidity that exists in government and elsewhere here, in the hope that our kids might have a better indonesia, should they choose to be here..That said, I admire the fact that you're as passionate as you are about this country, but don't let yourself be completely blinded by that passion. There are many problems Indonesia is doing and has done nothing to solve - is it such a painful task to acknowledge that?Ct
matsaleh
As someone who lives in the Balinese community you too must be aware of the extreme concern about what is often seen as a slow crawl towards Sharia Law in Indonesia. It's a subject much talked about amongst Balinese I know and I've yet to be told that I have no right to comment or care.[/quote]I guess we hang in circles comprised of "different tribes of Balinese" ( :D ), as I never hear anything like this, nor have I ever heard anything even remotely aligned. Expressions of shock and bewilderment over the past two bombings, yes, no doubt about that...but a fear of an advancing Sharia law? No way..... [/quote]I guess you do mix in different circles, Roy because this is often a topic of discussion amongst my Balinese friends, particularly since the passing of the "pornografi/pornoaksi" legislation. The Balinese I know (admittedly in the south of Bali), are really quite concerned with what they see as the "Islamification" and "Arabisation" of Indonesia as a whole and specifically, how this will affect Bali in the long term. Many Balinese are also perturbed by the hoards of Javanese purchasing land in Bali; more so than they are about westerners doing the same. A recent comment from a Balinese friend: "The Javanese don't need to force Islam on us, they're slowly buying us out... " :(
mimpimanis
I'm saying that so far US, GB and Indonesia have not had any repeated attacks since the last time it happened which in these respective country. US - not since 9/11. GB - not since 7/11 [/quote]I'm not sure what punishment it is you thnk UK offer as a deterrent but whatever there has been at least one further bomb that I know of since 7/11. Exeter May 2008[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/7415831.stm[/url]Not to mentioned planned attacks that were foiled. A group of men were arrested in 2006 plotting a number of attacks around UK.And of course terrorism is nothing new to UK before islamic terrorists there was the IRA. So 40 odd years of terrorism and its still happening.
BaliLife
What does this demonstrate is that the SYSTEM works![/quote]what system milan? indonesia turned the execution of amrozi & co into an absolute circus. not one ounce of credit is due to indonesian authorities; they turned a few pathetic creatures into martyrs because they let their hack of a judicial process draw out over 6 years; all the while, allowing a few stinking murderers to have their faces shown every 5 minutes in the national media.the "war on terror" is a hoax. anybody who doesn't get that by now has severely diminished capacity and anyone that says that we're winning or that there's hope of winning is probably running for office. indonesia's participation in the "war on terror" is a hoax within a hoax.without resolving the injustices that spur fanaticism, fighting a "war on terrorism" is like trying to empty a bathtub with a teaspoon while you've got the tap running full-bore. there will never be a military solution to this problem. diplomacy and negotiations are the only hope in ending this sad era in history.ct
SG
The Balinese I know (admittedly in the south of Bali), are really quite concerned with what they see as the "Islamification" and "Arabisation" of Indonesia as a whole and specifically, how this will affect Bali in the long term.[/quote]Yep, exactly the terms I hear being used. Roy, I'm surprised you are not hearing the concerns...perhaps they are more prevalent in the south but they are subject of much discussion.
SG
I'm saying that so far US, GB and Indonesia have not had any repeated attacks since the last time it happened which in these respective country. US - not since 9/11. GB - not since 7/11 [/quote]I'm not sure what punishment it is you thnk UK offer as a deterrent but whatever there has been at least one further bomb that I know of since 7/11. Exeter May 2008[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/7415831.stm[/url]Not to mentioned planned attacks that were foiled. A group of men were arrested in 2006 plotting a number of attacks around UK.And of course terrorism is nothing new to UK before islamic terrorists there was the IRA. So 40 odd years of terrorism and its still happening.[/quote]shhhhhhhh...you are not supposed to quote or refer to history....
BaliLife
shhhhhhhh...you are not supposed to quote or refer to history....[/quote] :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Roy
BaliLife, I know you know that you were grossly exaggerating with your comments. It's been said before...rose colored glasses, head in the sand, etc., etc. You and I have had our differences ever since you first arrived on the forum proclaiming Singapore as a much needed model for Indonesia to follow. That's fine and I think we are both looking forward to meeting each other at Nuri's one day in the near future. There is nothing wrong with lively debate and opposing views. But please, at least acknowledge that I often mention the continued need for improvement and I've never stated anything even remotely like, "all is perfect" here. That I concentrate on accentuating the positives of Indonesia, and the improvements made year by year is well known, and in my view it is sorely needed on this forum which continues, year after year with Indo bashing as though it is some sort of sport. Unless I write about it, rarely does anyone read anything here about milestone legislation such as the dual citizenship law passed in 2004. How anyone can reconcile in their minds that such legislation came from a legislature that at the same time is moving to "shariaize" Indonesia is beyond my comprehension. I think the pornography law has been fully discussed on another string. In my neck of the woods, this has largely been shrugged off and that's interesting in its own right as this area has the greatest concentration of professional full time artists and art galleries than anywhere else in Bali. There are plenty of nudes hanging on the walls of Ubud area art galleries and museums, and there are plenty of artists that keep (and will keep) on painting them. This Sunday, on the 30th, my friend Amir Sidharta will be having another of his Indonesian contemporary art auctions in Jakarta, and the catalogue for that sale includes four full on nude female paintings...interestingly all painted by Javanese artists. Balinese concerns about heavy buying of Balinese land by non Balinese Indonesians is nothing new. That concern has been around here for a long time, and was of most intense during the Soeharto years. I've heard this a lot, and I know of some banjars in Bali that are very active in persuading their villagers to sell only to other Balinese. However, I have NEVER heard of this ever being expressed in any context remotely associated to fears of Islamification of Bali. It's interesting that there seems to be a consensus that the Balinese in the "southern triangle" are often heard voicing their fears or concerns of some perceived efforts by the national government to Islamify Bali. As I mentioned earlier, that is not at all on the typical Balinese mind in and around Ubud. However, with that said, what I have noted for years is a certain "disconnect" between the Balinese in the south to other Balinese anyway...and maybe this is part of that disconnect? I have no idea...I'm just speculating. For certain, this topic would make for a very interesting poll of Balinese taken regency by regency.
BaliLife
Roy, I agree with all you mention, including my exaggerations :)
SG
However, with that said, what I have noted for years is a certain "disconnect" between the Balinese in the south to other Balinese anyway...and maybe this is part of that disconnect? I have no idea...I'm just speculating. For certain, this topic would make for a very interesting poll of Balinese taken regency by regency.[/quote]Agreed. I often feel that I'm in a very different island when I'm around Denpasar or anywhere south, when put next to anywhere north.One if the reasons we like Sanur is that it feels like a good balance of the two and both are accessible.
SG
However, I have NEVER heard of this ever being expressed in any context remotely associated to fears of Islamification of Indonesia.[/quote]Just to clarify, the discussion was about the Islamification of Indonesia as a whole, not just Bali. There is [url=http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2008/11/28/%E2%80%98moderate-muslim%E2%80%99-image-doubted.html]another article[/url] in the Jakarta Post today which relates to this. I think there is both substance and nonsense in it but will not comment further beyond saying that this topic seems to raise it's head daily in the media now.With radicalism and conservatism appearing to take root across Indonesia without significant public opposition, scholars are questioning just how moderate the silent majority of Indonesian Muslims really is.They said the recent passage of the pornography bill and the government's ban on the Jamaah Ahmadiyah minority sect, coupled with the enactment of sharia-inspired bylaws in many regions, was evidence the of rising conservatism.A discussion, hosted by the Maarif Institute on Thursday, concluded that conservatism is growing in Indonesia - widely considered a moderate Muslim nation - with many Muslims ranking their devotion to their religion higher than their commitment to their country........[/quote]
milan
This is the kind of healthy debate I seek for. I enjoyed reading the difference of opinions and inputs of each of the posters on this last page. I have to give credit when credit is due. It's rich to read from each poster's perspective.
milan
without resolving the injustices that spur fanaticism, fighting a "war on terrorism" is like trying to empty a bathtub with a teaspoon while you've got the tap running full-bore. there will never be a military solution to this problem. diplomacy and negotiations are the only hope in ending this sad era in history.[/quote]That sounds daunting and very pessimistic. I hope it's not that bleak as that. I always see the glass half full, thus for my opinion on the execution of the Indonesian terrorists.If diplomacy and negotiations are the only means to this end, what should be the conditions given for the other party to adhere. Look at N. Korea. Even Madeleine Albright under Clinton was duped. All shows but no action from the counterpart. What makes you think that other Nations wouldn't do the same. Just for debate sake.And on Indonesia, what's your best solution to at least make this country head towards being the greater country. I'm interested to see your would be idea as to what it would take given the size, the endemic system on many levels and aspects of governing that has not been perfected to at least on a par with Malaysia, the health care, social issues, etc.Yes, there is a little of that nagging doubt in me regarding Sharia Laws. The last time I was in Jakarta, I saw the dramatic change that made one segment of Society I used to know in Jakarta rather unrecognizable by the way they dress. That was noticable from day one. I miss the old Jakarta, but at the same time I noticed the positive aspect of the new democracy that Indonesia as a Nation just recently embraced. Perhaps time will tell as we are still in the infancy of this freedom that is called Democracy? And on the terrorism in GB, sadly those by IRA was omnipresent for years. Why do you think they're quietened down now in the last few years. Was it by Agreement signed or the other type of terrorism has taken over? Do you think it'll still happen again.I throw all these out here to get everyone's opinion. It's just so interesting to see all of your take and weighing in on the present situation we live in. (still haven't had my coffee yet)... :(
SG
[b]The IRA[/b]Why are we discussing the IRA on a Bali forum? I know we range far and wide but it's really not that relevant to Bali As Part Of The World.
milan
From mimpimanis quote which I realised that yes, GB has had its gross share of terrorism. And of course terrorism is nothing new to UK before islamic terrorists there was the IRA. So 40 odd years of terrorism and its still happening.[/quote]I'm asking now ideas, SG, and not only criticism. As to find the negatives is so easy a task. I'd like to know just for debate sake, what's your solution. This is a genuine curiousity, as I say, I like healthy debate and different points of views. Don't be so diffident!
bolli
I don't actually understand 1 quarter of what Milan says :oops: :oops:
milan
I'm going to return to you Bolli with kindness. At least you read my post, thank you.
chilli
its more understandable if you can wait untill she has her coffee ! :idea:
SG
From mimpimanis quote which I realised that yes, GB has had its gross share of terrorism. And of course terrorism is nothing new to UK before islamic terrorists there was the IRA. So 40 odd years of terrorism and its still happening.[/quote]I'm asking now ideas, SG, and not only criticism. As to find the negatives is so easy a task. I'd like to know just for debate sake, what's your solution. This is a genuine curiousity, as I say, I like healthy debate and different points of views. Don't be so diffident![/quote]Mimpimanis was just pointing out that terror is not new to the UK. Milan, I'm happy to discuss anything relating to the world as it relates to Bali and Indonesia and the things that impact Indonesia but in the last couple of pages you've run all over the place, and I'm trying to be as polite as possible, but as is evident you ain't making much sense to any of us. You've gone from suggesting that India needs to execute more people to asking now what we think of the IRA, which has nothing to do with anything on the ground here aside from the fact they used terror. That aside it was a sect and, historically, an Irish independence issue that goes back to the days of the Norman invasion of the 1100s and has hopefully been resolved by the unity government in place there.None of this has anything to do with Bali. Does it?
milan
Then just continue with the history of India and Italy on your other posts. Does it have to do with Bali? (Just rhetorical). Still can't offer solutions, can you? As an Indonesian, I should not voice my opinion on politics nor living as an expat in another country comparing to those who live in Indonesia; the amount of negativities you go through in Indonesia as opposed to Indonesians abroad e.g.: me, where I try to show that it's not all roses here either. But somehow you couldn't take as suddenly I'm paranoid (more phobic, actually) and all I was trying to do was to bring to the fore that other country which happened to be Italy because I live here - have a lot of their shortcomings too. The thread on the Vital Reading regarding lands in Bali, yes, that's informative for people to read. All I ask you is please don't judge. I just want to enjoy my membership here as an expat too so could you please stop picking on me regardless of what I write. You're such bullies! We're not in the elementary school here. You don't like what I write, then don't read it!! You want to give criticism, then do so but constructively and not by putting down, be it on Indonesia, Bali, me.And I'm here because I was asked to stay and continue posting, don't worry, not by Bert.
