BaliLife
I guess one could look at it as bleak milan, but I rather look at it as though the current approach has been to try to ignore radical sects ("terrorists") in the hope that by not acknowledging them, you'll ensure they don't have credibility abd are unable to grow, while you kill them one by one. It doesn't work, it hasn't worked and it will clearly never work. Why is al-qaeda looked upon differently to than the IRA, which through the legitimate SF party shares a ruling hand now in N. Ireland? The list of differences is probably quite long depending who you ask, but at its root I believe the main difference is that al-qaeda is a muslim "terrorist" organization and the IRA is/was just another brand of christianity. People looked at the faces of IRA members and still saw people that looked like their brothers and sisters. The west looks at al-qaeda and sees muslim arabs - its pretty easy to exploit peoples fear and convince them that these groups, al-qaeda, hamas, hezbollah, etc are all seeking to end civilization as we know it, but at the end of the day it's not as simple as that. When israel was established, palestinians were displaced and quickly became subserviant creatures to israel. For decades israel has slaughtered innocent palestinian women and children in "self defense" and america has given nothing less than unconditional support for israel. America has stood against the internation communities of france, england, china, rushia - most nations that have called for israel to stop its agression and remove its illegal settlements from gaza (now they're gone - but not because israel thought they'd do a good deed for palestinians) and the west bank (growing by the day). There are dozens of UN resolutions demanding israel back out and back off and everytime the US has a vote, they vito it.. The "never again" line is a political line. What does that mean? Never again to jews? But what happened to the jews is now happening to palestinians at the hands of the jews, so the line "never again" is selective irony. So, what does this have to do with indonesia? Everything. At the very root of all islamic radicalism is the "israel question". Its used as propoganda globally to tell muslims that the west hates them, but loves the jews. Now, don't get me wrong - israel is not entirely to blame for the ongoing violence there, not by a long shot. They have a whole lot of idiotic neighbours that ensure the region remains in constant chaos. So the first and most important thing that needs to be done is that the US president needs to take a heavy hand with israel and say, enough is enough. Let's sit down at a table with hamas and not get up until we have an agreement and you getting your settlements the hell out of the west bank is not up for negotiation, it needs to happen and happen quickly. How likely is it this would happen? About as likely as me giving birth to twin chimps. But it is the only way you can start this process in an effective manner.That would be enough itself to stop 80% of the violence.That's step one.Step 2. Reach out to Iran3. Withdraw all troups from afghanistan and iraq4. Rebalance the power held in the UN5. Live happily ever after :lol:Ct
milan
FANTASTIC, BALILIFE. YOUR ANSWER WAS WHAT I LOOKED FOR. BRAVO!! I ENJOYED READING THAT AND I'M GOING TO READ IT AGAIN TO UNDERSTAND PROFOUNDLY.
SG
Then just continue with the history of India and Italy on your other posts. Does it have to do with Bali? (Just rhetorical). Still can't offer solutions, can you? As an Indonesian, I should not voice my opinion on politics nor living as an expat in another country comparing to those who live in Indonesia; the amount of negativities you go through in Indonesia as opposed to Indonesians abroad e.g.: me, where I try to show that it's not all roses here either. But somehow you couldn't take as suddenly I'm paranoid (more phobic, actually) and all I was trying to do was to bring to the fore that other country which happened to be Italy because I live here - have a lot of their shortcomings too. The thread on the Vital Reading regarding lands in Bali, yes, that's informative for people to read. All I ask you is please don't judge. I just want to enjoy my membership here as an expat too so could you please stop picking on me regardless of what I write. You're such bullies! We're not in the elementary school here. You don't like what I write, then don't read it!! You want to give criticism, then do so but constructively and not by putting down, be it on Indonesia, Bali, me.And I'm here because I was asked to stay and continue posting, don't worry, not by Bert.[/quote]Milan, I'm not picking on you but you keep on wandering all over the place. The situation in India has a clear parallel and a relevance to Bali but the IRA does not, neither in the way it was resolved or the historic situation. I'm happy to have you explain otherwise and then take it from there if I agree but try as I might I can't.I'm not judging you at all and I want to be able to discuss this with you but when I try you toss in things like the irrelevance of history and such which really throws me. Maybe I'm misreading what you are saying and if so I'm sorry. I agree with BaliLife that the US has to grow some, for want of a better word, balls, and try and sort out the Israeli situation by being tougher with the nation and it's antagonists. And then get the f**k out of the region. But that will never happen so I dunno.There is a reason (although not close to a justification) they were asking for UK & US passport holders in Mumbai and that has to do with the events of the past 80 odd years, since the Balfour agreement. [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_War_for_Civilisation:_The_Conquest_of_the_Middle_East]Fisk's last book[/url], which is a mighty read, is a good place to start to understand the complexity.
chilli
So the first and most important thing that needs to be done is that the US president needs to take a heavy hand with israel and say, enough is enough. Let's sit down at a table with hamas and not get up until we have an agreement and you getting your settlements the hell out of the west bank is not up for negotiation, it needs to happenCt[/quote]Now THIS would be called the CHANGE.
Roy
Late tomorrow afternoon I'll be meeting with two doctors of education from Bert's neck of the woods...both are Balinese. I'll raise this topic with them, only for the reason that you've raised my curiosity. Eri and I know them very well, and they will be totally honest. Who knows...maybe I'll be shocked by their replies. Either way, I'll share them here.[/quote]I did indeed raise this topic earlier today with Professor Doctor Dewi, who is a full professor at both Undiksa Singaraja and Udayana in Denpasar. In her capacity, she is involved in daily discussions with both Balinese, and non Balinese university students, and has been for several years. Without equivocation, she assured me that she has never heard concerns raised by ANY of her students regarding attempts by the national government of Indonesia to "Islamify" Bali. In her view, she thought the whole idea was rather silly and juvenile. Further to this point, I challenge anyone to come up with any research published anywhere by any Balinese that would support the view that... "As someone who lives in the Balinese community you too must be aware of the extreme concern about what is often seen as a slow crawl towards Sharia Law in Indonesia. It's a subject much talked about amongst Balinese I know and I've yet to be told that I have no right to comment or care."[/quote]If I were on the "Myth Busters" team, I'd being saying this one is BUSTED! :lol: :lol: :lol:
SG
If I were on the "Myth Busters" team, I'd being saying this one is BUSTED![/quote]Honestly Roy I don't think you've come within a million miles of doing that. Firstly if you read back through the thread you asked the completely wrong questions. The conversations, as heard by more than one of us relates to concerns about the increasingly slow crawl towards [b]Sharia Law in Indonesia[/b].[/quote]. Nobody ever mentioned attempts by the national government of Indonesia to "Islamify" Bali until you did.Secondly, having just spent some time with a teacher who was unaware that their pupils swear, teachers are hardly the people to ask as to what their pupils are talking about. Thirdly, who on earth is going to sit down and research such a thing. This is the sort of thing young Balinese people are talking about. My daughter comes home from school and tells me its being discussed (she is the only non-Indonesian in her school), my friends when we talk over a beer or three talk of their concerns [i]about the slow crawl towards Sharia Law in Indonesia.[/i]But as I said..you asked the wrong questions, so that's neither here nor there.
Roy
I guess it's just me, but I don't see any real difference between a "slow crawl towards Sharia law in Indonesia" and an "attempt by the Indonesian government to "Islamify" Bali." Any "slow crawl towards Sharia law" would have to involve all levels of the national legislature, Sharia law is a facet of Islam, and Bali is part of Indonesia.But, as I mentioned in another post, this difference regarding what Balinese have on their minds could very well indicate a further disconnect between the Balinese in the "southern triangle" and those elsewhere. I'm not disputing that you are hearing this concern voiced by Balinese you associate with "down South" but at the same time, I can't get anyone up here, including some elements of the student body at Udayana University in Denpasar (through their professor) to indicate that there is any sort of concern...slow crawls, or giant leaps! :) The mythbusters thing was only intended as a joke...sorry it was a bad one! Cheers!
SG
I guess it's just me, but I don't see any real difference between a "slow crawl towards " and an "attempt by the Indonesian government to "Islamify" Bali."[/quote]I think its substantially different. There is no real intent on the part of the Indonesian government to Islamify Bali, with one exception, the pornography law, which attempts to add a conservative Islamic morality to the nation as a whole, and we have seen the result of that to date (and I think that has just begun)....the PDI has a huge banner on the Candidasa bypass saying, roughly translated, "Overturn The Porno Law as it's an attack on the Hindu religion and the culture of Bali". The core part of that is the part about the Hindu Religion...which raises the obvious question as to who is attacking the religion and why. Clearly the PDI thinks someone is and that the idea has traction in Bali.Which takes us to the who...and the slow crawl towards Sharia law in Indonesia, which is a stated philosophy of certain political elements in Indonesia (represented but not powerful in Bali). The porno law and others are a part of that agenda and there is substantial concern, not just in Bali, but across Indonesia, about this..the media is full of it. It's a core theme in the political discourse of the nation right now, and as you say, Bali is a part of the nation and perhaps has more reason, like various other places, to be concerned than the more conservative rural areas of Java and Sumatra. But even in places like Jogja there is some unease.One thing I've heard talked about is the perverted old Imam in Semarang (and this is not an attack on Islam folks but on the man himself), with his 12 year old wife. Why, since the law is clear, are the authorities so reluctant to act. He is claiming the Koran as his ultimate authority, above the nation.It's covered pretty well in the [url=http://www.thebalitimes.com/2008/11/28/moralizing-clerics-back-anti-porn-law-but-take-child-brides/]Bali Times this week[/url].
Roy
I think we are basically saying the same thing Simon. As you note, these Islamic directed (for lack of better words) kind of bills periodically get introduced into the DPR body by various Islamic parties. This is nothing new, but for certain, the anti-porn legislation (particularly as it was first drafted in 1999 or there about) caught a great deal of attention. This is one of the wonderful things about a vigorous democracy...that from time to time, various factions that make up the whole will be periodically in a position of influence. Then there are elections, and then things change again. Personally I think that to interpret the anti-porn bill as an indication that things are moving in a particular direction..."the slow crawl to Sharia law" is a pre-mature conclusion. That the PDI-P banner you mention would carry such a slogan is not at all surprising to me as that is simply politics at work. There is little in common between the ideologies of that party and many of the smaller more Islamic orientated parties. Once again, what I see is the beauty of a vigorous democracy at work. Cheers!
SG
[url=http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2008/12/09/sby-signs-porn-law-protesters-despair.html]Porn law ratified..working on regulations[/url]I guess we wait now.
tintin
We are ready for the new law, let them come. This picture was taken yesterday, at Kuta Beach, where one of the new Jakarta's "public moral" polisi is seen making sure that everything is in accordance with the new law.[attachment=0:1in56ds4]Bathing-Suits.jpg[/attachment:1in56ds4]
Roy
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Well done Daniel!
stevehallyoga
i was engaged to a muslim girl and her family loved yoga..... the malay govt never inforced this..... they were never worried about the physical practise.... just the chanting and philosphyI hope Indonesia wouldn't follow suit. KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia - Malaysia's top Islamic body on Saturday banned Muslims from practicing yoga, saying the Indian physical exercise contains elements of Hinduism and could corrupt Muslims.The National Fatwa Council, which has the authority to rule on how Muslims must conduct their faith, issued a fatwa, or edict, saying yoga involves not just physical exercise but also includes Hindu spiritual elements, chanting and worship.Council chairman Abdul Shukor Husin told reporters that many Muslims who practice the globally popular yoga failed to understand that its ultimate aim was to be one with a god of a different religion."We are of the view that yoga, which originates from Hinduism, combines physical exercise, religious elements, chanting and worshipping for the purpose of achieving inner peace and ultimately to be one with god," he said."It is inappropriate. It can destroy the faith of a Muslim," he said.The Fatwa Council's decisions are not legally binding on Muslims, who comprise nearly two-thirds of Malaysia's 27 million people, unless they are enshrined in national or Shariah lawsHowever, many Muslims abide by the edicts out of deference, and the council does have the authority to ostracize an offending Muslim from society.The fatwa reflects the growing strain of conservatism in Malaysia, which has always taken pride in its multiethnicity. About 25 percent of Malaysians are ethnic Chinese and 8 percent ethnic Indians, mostly Hindus.Recently, the council issued an edict banning tomboys, ruling that girls who act like boys violate the tenets of Islam.The issue of yoga came into the limelight last month when an Islamic scholar expressed an opinion at a seminar that it was un-Islamic, prompting the Fatwa Council to step in.Local newspapers have received several letters from Muslims, expressing indignation at the scholar's view, saying yoga is simply a way to maintain health and has nothing to do with religion.There are no figures for how many Muslims practice yoga, but many yoga classes have a sprinkling of Muslims attending.In a recent blog, social activist Marina Mahathir criticized the council for even considering a yoga ban, calling it "a classic case of reacting out of fear and ignorance.""Yoga may have spiritual roots but most of us do it for the exercise, both for the mind and body," Marina wrote.[/QUOTE]
