BaliLife
needless to say i completely agree with SG and tintin on your last point jimbo - an absolute cop-out..
and for christ's sake, let's not even get back into discussing your second point on cleanliness.. though i must say, being familiar with the english philosophy or going for a 'wash', you know, where they splash a few handfuls of water on their underarms before drying them on a hand towel, i can see why you'd look at almost any other culture in the world and think, "wow, cleanliness!"..
ct
BaliLife
[quote=milan]So, in my opinion, Jimbo shouldn't be ashamed of saying that phrase.[/quote]
so wait, let me get this straight milan.. you're bashing the italian's for saying likewise, but you support jimbo saying the same thing? i really missed your logical perspectives in your absence.. :wink:
ct
milan
Balilife,
I'm not bashing. It's the phrase used so loosely here in Italy - is what I'm trying to say and I'm accustomed to it, no big deal even though it was shocking at first when I was still new here. Now I know how to fight back which makes them shut-up.
Since when do you live in Italy and know how things operate here?
Anyway, gotta go teaching English now.
lumumba
Dear FreoGirl,
After reading your last post now I know exactly who I’m dealing with and I will not be bother to answer to your very miskin comments and will not even tell you about my profession, your brain would not get it in a million years.
My case it’s closed with you.
Dear Roy,
I do understand you situation, you had a driver, not much travel and so on……….. Where we live, traffic cops are just not necessary, except occasionally in central Ubud.
You Quote: As for the more important skills required of an effective police department.
Please do not mix the Bali bombing with directing traffic and the arrest of the first suspect, two completely different things. :evil:
You should have read the last to line as I’ve told you in my previous post: Statement: Let me tell you that I still live in Bandung, West Java, and will move to Bali very soon but I’ve been in Bali many times, only 1 bad experience in directing traffic in Bali. You don’t see many police directing traffic, not me anyway. :D
MAYBE YOU SHOULD TAKE A TRIP TO BANDUNG, WEST JAVA, THIS WILL OPEN YOUR EYES
As I said to FreoGirl I will say it to you: will not even tell you about my profession. Please don’t tell me I formed based solely on my limited exposure or like Freo I really do not know anything about the subject
I will again rest my case here and now, CHEERS
bolli
What,...... you cook ?????:shock: :shock: :shock: :)
tintin
Jimbo's several points, observations, were well taken. He just negated his apparent wisdom by his last statement. This statement is a typical red-neck's argument, not that of a wise old man that Jimbo was trying to be. :roll:
tintin
Milan,
It's not so much your English, but your mind...
You write
[quote]It's you who are inconsistent or is it because it's Indonesia so the rule should be different?[/quote]
Inconsistent? Moi? "What" is "Indonesia?" I was answering a Westerner, who speaks as a Westerner, about one of his utterances. And for this kind of comment, I have little patience, would it be in the USA, Indonesia, on Bali pod, or on the moon. Capisce? :x
milan
Perhaps it’s best to bring an Italian police to direct the traffics in Indonesia since you mentioned, Lumumba, that it'd take one Italian police to direct the traffics in Bandung.
But I’d bet it’ll take 10 of them since they’re so robot-like and have no common-sense to direct one traffic light in Jakarta given the chaos, heat, abysmal salary, etc. I’ve never seen accidents so frequently took place even on my street here in Milan than any other countries I’ve lived to a point having to see a dead man lying waiting for Ambulance quite a few times. Yet, this is Europe, right?
And I’d rather have Indonesian police than Italians as all they do is driving around with their car whilst on duty polluting the city and ogling girls or stopping at a Bar for an espresso.
Then when you really need them, they’re nowhere to be found. But when they’re there, big zero! Nada! No result.
mimpimanis
[b]Milan said[/b]
[quote]That’s why you hardly hear Indonesians asking such question as: “Do you like Indonesia?” ][/quote]
I get asked this all the time. Pretty much everytime someone asks me how long I have been here for, which is just about every time I meet someone new.
[b]Freo said[/b]
[quote]I think Jimbo is just trying to say 'let's not be whinging poms'.[/quote]
Watch out Freo or I will be reporting you to Bert :lol: :lol: :lol:
Jimbo
I am so suprised at how things escalate in this forum. I did not log on yesterday and since then all sorts of things have been happening. I would like to share with you some experiences from my village. Not in Bali true but as the converations were about Indonesia I think it is relevent.
1. Education
My father in law could not read, had no basic education but was one of the wisest men I have ever met and taught me a lot about being a real man. I am educated with two degrees and fellowships in professional organisations but he knew more about his environment than I ever could. Watching him farm, animal husbandry and living almost self sufficiently is something I could never do.
2. Cleanliness
I have found most Indonesians to be far more aware of cleanliness especially the personal variety than many westerners. Bathing at least twice a day and maybe having to go far to fetch the water to do so. When I was in the middle east I was in the habit of cleaning myself with water after defecating which is what is done here by any who are at home. I admit public toilets are a problem.
3. Friendliness
Having lived and worked in many different countries I have yet to find any peoples who are more friendly than Indonesians and I love them for it. Yes there are bad ones like any other country but in 26 years I have never had a bad experience. Indifference sometimes but always with a smile.
4. Corruption
Yes there is corruption here but there is also corruption in many other places that is far worse and far more aggressive and those that want far bigger amounts.
I could go on an on pointing out the good things here and I am sure some with reply with an equal number of bad things. This country is an emerging and developing one that has many problems but I love it for all of that. Why? It is because I feel at home here and no where else on earth makes me feel like that. As I native borne Englishman I also love my birth country but I am not blind to its faults but for me I will die in Indonesia and be happy to do so.
My last word is that if you do not like it there are flights leaving for somewhere else every day. If you do stay and try and help and do not criticise. That is the job of Indonesians.
SG
[quote]My last word is that if you do not like it there are flights leaving for somewhere else every day. If you do stay and try and help and do not criticise. That is the job of Indonesians.[/quote]
Jimbo, I think that is a total cop out, sorry. Firstly no-one is saying they dislike Indonesia, quite the opposite if you read back. Secondly, most nations doing well welcome constructive criticism and I think you'll find many Indonesians do as well and not only that but purposely bring in foreign minds to help work their way towards a better future. Thirdly, many of us contribute to this country in a fairly substantial way..myself I'm pleased to say I've helped provide substantial employment opportunities, design expertise and quite a bit more and for that I feel I'm entitled to an opinion. I also have strong opinions on various other nations including the US, Australia and Europe, based on personal experience and observation and I'll share those. It's the very nature of a healthy society that one is able to do that.
Where I come from we are a nation of immigrants, long and short term. All inhabitants of the nation are invited to and expected to partake in it's day to day existence and contribute. And so it should be in Indonesia. I understand this country still has a chip on it's shoulder from 300 years of Dutch exploitation and that taints attitudes but it has to get beyond the 'if you don't like it get on a plane' attitude if it's to move ahead.
milan
Why should Jimbo be ashamed of his statement?
I get this response here in Milan anytime I say something like "typical Italian" when I'm treated loudly even on a banal thing such as booking a flight and couldn't determine exactly what day I should book. The tickett woman at a Travel Agent's impatience made her yell at me.
Or once I say I wish there was Pizza Hut or Starbucks here in Milan. I get the same response again from an Italian.
In Florence one tourist was overheard saying" Once you see one you see it all" regarding Piazzas and Churches in Italy and we were at a self-service restaurant when suddenly there was a big commotion around. It was an Italian man ready to punch an English for his statement above.
Any which statement one makes here that seems to be harmless but in their eyes it is anti-Italian, this is the response one get here: " Go back to your country then".
So, in my opinion, Jimbo shouldn't be ashamed of saying that phrase.
SG
[quote=milan]Balilife,
I'm not bashing. It's the phrase used so loosely here in Italy - is what I'm trying to say and I'm accustomed to it, no big deal even though it was shocking at first when I was still new here. Now I know how to fight back which makes them shut-up.
Since when do you live in Italy and know how things operate here?
Anyway, gotta go teaching English now.[/quote]
I'm not sure how that fact that it's tossed around in Milan makes it any less of a cop out.
They have a joke in NZ that the first thing visitors are asked as they leave the plane is "do you like it"
And if they failure to enthuse sufficiently they are then told "well if you don't, why don't you get back on the plane".
it's told to emphasise how narrow and insular some NZers can be and there is truth in it but it's, as a I said in an earlier post, an attitude which has largely disappeared now thank god and the country is the better for it.
BTW MIlan, what is a 'typical Italian'? I think anyone has the right to be offended by a blanket sweep like that.
And a Pizza Hut or Starbucks in Italy? Really? I thought they did coffee and Italian food rather better than those two sad US attempts at the same (and I know Pizza as we know it is largely from NYC but it's from Italians in NY).
And I would expect a strong reaction from someone in Java if I said "Once you've seen one Mosque you've seen them all"..seriously.
milan
I guess we’re going off topic now but speaking of cleanliness. While entering the practice room of my student who is a male Italian doctor, I say the room is hot. His response was: “ I just have the windows opened because I wish some patients would take a shower first before coming here for a visit”.
“Typical Italian” at least for me at that moment was referred to her losing control and YELLING!!.
For International-minded and well-travelled people who live in this country know what this expression means. We sort of understand it.
That’s why you hardly hear Indonesians asking such question as: “Do you like Indonesia?” as we are quite understanding and intelligent to know that it puts a person on the spot. And to think that NZ and yes, also the Italians asked me this too was something that I found baffling as it was more of a pressure for me to say what the nice things they to want to hear which I used to comply at my initial times here but since then I learned and so would answer in a-matter-of-factly if they genuinely wanted to hear what I really think to see their reaction. Utter disgust with an added phrase: “then go back to your country!”. One time happened where I just got up and went to that man up close and said to his face: “if it’s one who should say that I should go back to my country is my husband and NOT YOU!”. The man was quiet. My husband was hiding behind some people who were present in this party. But that was then when I was still 2 years living here. It was so funny!
Today, it is my husband who could sometimes overreact and I’m the one who’ve become the moderator. How our roles have reversed.
As for the Pizza Hut and Starbucks, it was just a passing remark I made to my American friends at a ladies luncheon which they agreed and this Italian woman was on the other end of the table and overheard it. We were dumbfounded when she responded so angrily.
Enough now for my response on this thread. Have to go prepare dinner.
tintin
Milan,
I don't know if I should answer your post. Let me put my best foot forward and answer you as delicately as possible:
1) We are not in Italy, we are on the Bali pod. So your "adventures" in Italy are totally irrelevent on this forum.
2) That some Italians would tell you that if you don't like this or that in Italy, "why don't you go back to your country," IMHO does not say much about these particular Italians.
3) Here in the USA, I have been told more than once the same remark, and that shows that small mindeness is not exclusive to one country.
4) Finally, if you were offended by Italians making such a remark, why is it OK now, when Jimbo says the same thing? Kind of inconsistent on your part, isn't it? On the other hand, why am I not surprised? :roll:
milan
That's my point, Tintin. Why make a fuss of Jim's comments when I don't consider it something to be ashamed of anymore since I've accepted it here as it is very common which shocked me at first on my first few years here but it's how people react. I happen to be living in Italy at this moment so I speak of what takes place in regard of this statement here.
(I'm a Veteran of Bali like you but never lived long enough and only as a long-staying guest and will be again anytime I need as there's a place already for me to stay whenever I need).
So if you too have experienced the same reaction in the US then why were you surprised of Jimbo's reaction using this very same context on why not leave the country you're not happy to live in. It's you who are inconsistent or is it because it's Indonesia so the rule should be different? Believe me, I react as an Italian would and not as an Indonesian. So it's not very pleasant, is it?
I know my English is not perfect as I live in a non-speaking English country and with an Italian husband, it's not that we could communicate in perfect English so my syntax or whatever could be not so easy to decipher perhaps.
Bolli, :lol: :lol: Yup, can cook since I was 16 years although some relatives then were skeptical to eat my cooking... Now, everybody and especially hubby loves it... :lol:
What about you, Bolli. Love to know what's your favourite. (Once again, enough now on this thread for me, please...).
FreoGirl
[quote]My last word is that if you do not like it there are flights leaving for somewhere else every day. If you do stay and try and help and do not criticise. That is the job of Indonesians[/quote]
I think Jimbo's remark is not so much about 'if you don't like it go home'. If you read the whole thing, I believe the sentiment is more along the line of 'if you [i]chose[/i] to live here then make a contribution and don't just criticise. Jimbo is suggesting that it is not our place to be critical of Indonesia just for the sake of it - that only Indonesians have the right to do that.
We know that Indonesians don't criticise things much. It is a cultural thing, partly 'Asian' (always polite), and partly a legacy from their political history.
On the other hand, us Americans, Australians, Kiwis, English - we criticise everything (not always negative). Positive and negative criticism is endemic in our culture - we are (generalising here) always opinionating about our government, our family, our lives.
In the West, it is often public opinion that forces government to make changes, or to deliver better services. We express that opinion quite freely. Indonesians do not, or at least not in the same way - and there lies some of the reason that change is so slow in Indonesia.
As to Jimbo's comment - I think we need to be careful about criticism, at least publicly. Honestly, there is nothing worse than an expat who moans about everything - in Australia we have 'whinging poms' who moan on about Australia and truely leave me wondering why they don't just go home if England is so much better (which of course it isn't, which is why they are here and not there). :mrgreen:
I think Jimbo is just trying to say 'let's not be whinging poms'.
SG
[quote]As for the Pizza Hut and Starbucks, it was just a passing remark I made to my American friends at a ladies luncheon which they agreed and this Italian woman was on the other end of the table and overheard it. We were dumbfounded when she responded so angrily.[/quote]
Sorry but I'm still dumbfounded by this and I agree completely with the Italian woman. The only reason Starbucks existed in the first place was because the coffee on offer in the US was dreadful, and the reason it's slowly going down the gurgler now is because good coffee is widely available worldwide and it's market has gone.
But, as Daniel says, we are in Indonesia so enough of that.
[quote]I get asked this all the time. Pretty much everytime someone asks me how long I have been here for, which is just about every time I meet someone new.
[/quote]
Same, not sure how many times a day I get this. Everytime I put gas in my car I'm asked.
[quote]Jimbo is suggesting that it is not our place to be critical of Indonesia just for the sake of it - that only Indonesians have the right to do that.[/quote]
Sorry, I'm just not down with that sort of xenophobia. Criticising a country not the same as not liking it, if it's constructive and indeed you have a media here who lap up international commentary on Indonesia, and many many Indonesians [i]are[/i] quite voraciously criticizing both their country and others for that matter. Education does that sort of thing...people express opinions.
Traditionally Indonesians may be been quiet but no longer....read the local press, read Tempo, visit the Reformasi exhibitions in JKT...hell, I talk politics with Indonesians all the time and there seems no reticence to hear my opinion. Perhaps we expats shouldn't be so protective of those who don't ask it.
BaliLife
Milan, I have no idea [color=#008000][/color]
[quote]That’s why you hardly hear Indonesians asking such question as: “Do you like Indonesia?” as we are quite understanding and intelligent to know that it puts a person on the spot.[/quote]
[color=#00BF00][/color]
I get asked every single day by indonesians if I like indonesia. And it's usually asked such as, "it's nice in indo ya?" - "enak di indo ya", "kok mister gak mau jadi wne disini?". I don't find the question offensive any more than if somebody asked me, "how are you today?". It's a harmless question to which I always give a polite answer, and an honest answer. But to say indonesians don't ask this question, oh my god - that's like saying black is white.. [color=#008000][/color]
Ct
Jimbo
Tintin
Not trying to be a wise old man as I am not old :D
[code]I think Jimbo's remark is not so much about 'if you don't like it go home'. If you read the whole thing, I believe the sentiment is more along the line of 'if you chose to live here then make a contribution and don't just criticise. Jimbo is suggesting that it is not our place to be critical of Indonesia just for the sake of it - that only Indonesians have the right to do that.[/code]
This is closer to what I meant but I like others am tired of the Indonesia bashing and I wanted to make a positive rather than a negative statement about them whilst at the same time trying to explain. I see many people come to the UK or even here in Kazakhstan and it is none stop moaning about the people, the country, the politics etc. So I say again to all that if you do not like it why come here. You cannot vote, enter politics or even own a house so what does the complaining do.......nothing is what, so concentrate on the positives and the reasons you like it and either put up with what you dont or leave. If you think that is a cop out so be it. I will lose no sleep either way.
