SG
[quote]Balilife and SG, do some studying, spend some time with the common folks in this country, and I don't mean talking to the guy that owns the warung on the corner, or your driver.[/quote]
Bruce, forgive me if I toss around some much quoted statistics but Indonesia sits right at the bottom of the percentage of GDP spent on Education. This includes private and public expenditure. This country spends, according to the United Nations Human Development Programme, 1.2% of GDP, only Equatorial Guinea spends less. The average Indonesian goes to school for 5 years. Yes I have a child in the school system and many friends who either have or have had kids in schools, all grossly underfunded.
How many Indonesian tertiary institutes make it into the world's top 500 (3 I think from memory: University of Indonesia, ITB, & Gajah Mada University which for a nation of 230 million is disgraceful).
Look I understand you are just defending something that you were a part of but as a whole the education system is failing your so called common people badly and I'm sorry if you are defensive of something that may you think that reflects on you. It doesn't, but facts cannot be sidestepped just by saying it's not so.
As an aside my exposure to this country includes some 30 wide ranging trips to Java in the past years, driving, talking to and dealing with what you refer to as common folk (sorry but I don't like that phraseology I find it quite condescending as most people I know world wide are anything but common or average) in big and small towns as well as Bali. I admit I've never been to Sumatra or north or east.
Perhaps you can point out somewhere where I've referred to anyone as 'monkey' or anything close. I want the best for Indonesia but I don't think the state of denial you are quite clearly in is doing either yourself of Indonesia any good. And please don't hide behind accusations of hatred and bigotry, it is no such thing. Quite the opposite, and I toss that back at you. Why don't you want Indonesians to have access to the same standards of living, health, education as just about every other nation in Asia now enjoys or is aspiring to enjoy..the freedom of not having 200,000 children die from hygiene issues every year because your prized education system doesn't properly inform people how to clean (a figure last week said that only 7% of Indonesians wash their hands after going to the toilet...splash in the mandi doesn't count). Or one of the lowest book reading levels in the world. Or kids leaving school with the inability to do simple math without a calculator. Indonesia is falling behind in so many ways as their potential trading and economic competitors leap ahead and their people benefit.
Sticking your head in the sand doesn't help anyone.
And as I've said twice before, many Indonesians I know agree very much with what I'm saying..and, despite your patronizing slight, not 'my driver' (I don't have one) or the local warung but people whose opinions I rate rather highly, and I'm guessing they'd read your post and ask why you care so little about Indonesia's future.
Bert Vierstra
The "monkey remarks" slipped by me. It has been removed. It was indeed a stupid remark from Balilife, as well as some other remarks, which also have been removed.
However Bruce, running away from the forum, (without actually being part of it), without confronting the people you don't agree with, in one way or another,[b] or by informing me[/b], or giving a reaction on the forum itself, isn't helping either.
I am not perfect, and sometimes things just slip by me, and a report (see the buttons) [b]would help me a lot[/b]....
I don't see hatred or bigotry however, but maybe I am naive. I do see (often too) strong language and hotheads, but I read also the wish for a better and more just Indonesia, and the frustration this may bring.
As for the discussions about religion, this is always difficult. Practically and in daily life religions in general are fine. Radical excerpts always attract attention, and are cause of hefty discussions, distorting how religion and religious life really is. Mixture of politics and religion is fuel for fire and explosions, however. It simply doesn't work.
lumumba
Hi Mimpimanis,
Much better to pay 3000 or even more to someone else or somewhere else instead.
Just talking to them makes me feel sick and dirty. They are only interested in……….not helping people.
When I was living in the UK, nearly 25 yrs, I never had any problems with the police, only help in many cases, also in Italy and to think of it everywhere I’ve been and always respected them and feel very secure when I was stopped for any reasons.
Here the police can’t even direct traffic, completely useless at any given time, actually when they are not in the middle of the road the traffic flows much better.
I hope I haven’t started another problem by saying this but this is what I believe and [color=#FF0000]it is a fact.[/color]
Bert Vierstra
Well, generalizations will do (you) not much good here.
I also have different experiences.
BaliLife
Ok, well I do actually have a very positive generalization to make on this matter..
From my encounters and experiences in indonesia, there's one thing I can positively generalize about without hesitation and its that indonesians are friendly, extremely friendly and polite.. Whether it's a cop that's looking for money, a customs officer, a teller, a guy at the mall, a person on the street, anybody - I always find indonesians to be amongst the friendliest people I've ever met - always willing to give you their time.. So even though when you get pulled over by a cop, you know the guys looking for some quick cash - at least he's friendly..
That's been my experience.. I'm sure others have had otherwise..
Good to be back..
Ct
Roy
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with BaliLife, Freo and Bert. In almost 11 years, I’ve never had one bad experience with the police here in Bali. I find them patient, helpful, and very good at what they do. But those are only my own experiences.
Exceptions? Surely there are exceptions, but lumumba, your statement as fact is only fact in your own mind. Cheers!
SG
You're kidding right? Only 7% of Indonesians wash their hands after using the toilet?
What's this, are they exit polling at the mandi now?
Jakarta Post, via
www.globalhandwashing.org/Publications/Attachments/CurtisHandwashing.pdf+7%25+wash+hands+Indonesia&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=nz]The Lancet[/url] actually...who am I to believe them, one of the world's eminent medical journals, or you..hmmm a tough one.
No..I've thought about it, and thinking about your pretty shaky track record on this forum (being wrong about most things) I'll go for them. That figure of 200,000 (in East Asia) has been talked about extensively in the media and by health organisations,
over 100,000 are in Indonesia. Surely you did a wee search before your post? I did and got 34,800 hits.
Hygiene is a massive problem in Indonesia and when I consider the number of Kamar Kecil I've been in in Java in recent years and the number once you leave the malls that have soap and water (about 0%) I'd say you are talking the stuff that hasn't been washed off those hands again Don. And washing of hands isn't just a part of number 2s..for your future reference.
Please pay attention.
Kadek
Hi All,
One of the good things about this forum is that we can have serious discussions about many different topics. They have been interesting, and for the most part rewarding experience. However, the constant put down, about Indonesian, Balinese, the local culture are getting a bit too much. As an Indonesian, I understand and also am frustrated about how slow things are moving forward sometime, about the many many problems that are there and seems never to be resolved even with changing governments, reformasi, laws, etc.. It is possible to discuss topics about a vision and aspirations of a better Bali, a better Indonesia without resorting to insult of the whole of the population.
A new vision of a better future, is a positive thing. Why not make it an inspiration instead? Often we will shut down if being put down but will be inspired when the experience is a positive one and reinforces a positive outcome.
As we say in Indonesia "Lidah Lebih Tajam Dari Pisau" meaning 'Words are often sharper than knives". We, Indonesian, are also people with feelings that can get hurt and offended. Please don't use the fact that we don't know each other and our identities are somewhat hidden and unknown to cause us to say things that we would be hesitance to say in a face to face conversation.
I am not advocating that we should not discuss issues relating to the happenings in Indonesia, or that I am sticking my head in the sand about the problems that are there. Of course, I would like to see Indonesia that prospers and where there is not such a wide gap between the rich and the struggling majority. When those who control the economy can share and allow more privilages to the ordinary workers. Where one day, an ordinary person's wage is more than that what a rich person spent on going out in a day.
There are still many people who want to keep the majority of the population in the dark because it is beneficial to their own selfish goals (be it religiously or economically motivated).
Regards
Kadek
Kadek
Lumumba,
I don't understand what your blue highlighted writing of mixed mine and yours are meant to refer to. What I referred to in my posting is not about how fast people ride their motorbikes, [b]but rather about how slow change in the positive directions are occurring.[/b] I thought this would be rather obvious, perhaps it is my English and its nuances that I haven't quite able to project in my writing.
There are of course things happening faster than people can blink and think of what had hit them (other than motorbikes). Environmental problems is one, sprawling urban development is another, consumerism, commercialisation, material change of use of land from agriculture and natural to concrete, land ownerships etc..
As for the traffic, yes it is chaotic but as for being fast, I think it is much slower than in the Western countries (if only because there are many people wanting to use small roads and without following any clear traffic rules creating confusion and chaos). The problem of people driving like a maniac without any regards to other people's safety and the environment is not only a problem on Bali nor driving on undesignated 'road', sand dunes, bushland etc...uniquely Balinese characteristics. There are crazy and selfish people everywhere. I see them everyday here too.
BaliLife
To do any macro-analysis one must generalize about what the problems are. Unfortunately kadek, the phrase you quoted doesn't equally apply to indonesia's progression - if there were any sharp words amongst those that control the destiny of this nation, they've fallen blunt whilst falling on deaf ears.
when looking at a problem, generalizing is somewhat a necessary evil - we do it about americans, we do it about australians, we do it about every nation if we're trying to see what the problem is.. Whether its a positive generalization or a negative one.. For example, we say, thank god Americans made the right decision and left their stupidity behind.. Well that's a positive generalization, but in reality over 45% of them kept a tight grip on their stupidity..
So my point is, I don't know why people take generalizations so personally - the only one's that should do so are the ones that fall within the specifics of the generalization and in this case they're part of the problem.. Those who don't fall within that category, but happen to be indonesian, can surely see what the problems are - if they think the problems identified by those of us making the generalizations are false, the please suggest how so - but to say, "I'm offended" or "that's a generalization" is hardly a standing point.
Are you arguing that indonesia has not trailed comparable nations?
Are you arguing that religion is not part of the problem in indonesia?
Are you arguing that low education levels are not part of the problem in indonesia?
Are you suggesting that indonesia's leaders are doing the right things to move indonesia forward?
Ct
BaliLife
Yes I kind of agree on that freo, trffic would be at a contant standstill in many parts of indo if there weren't police directing it, or if people knew there weren't any police to stop them powering through the red light.. Certainly in surabaya anyhow..
Its more of a systemic issue that impedes police - even if you've got a guy that wants to be on the up and up, its very hard to survive on their wages, almost impossible I'd suggest, so what choice do they have?
Ct
BaliLife
Oh I just saw bert's other post mimpi on me (and others) being banned from posting.. I'm a little baffled (both at why the systems allowing me to continue posting and why we're being banned from posting) but nevertheless it's berts forum and I've always respected his judgement and his discretion so it would be hypocritical of me to question it now.. I hope that we (all of us, sumatra included) can soon gain back our posting priviliges..
I'll keep posting in the meantime (nicely) before bert catches the glitch and shuts me down..
For anyone I've offended - I do apologize - yes the fact that this is a forum tends to make us (me that is) think that people shouldn't take our rants too personally - but if you have, regardless of what my intentions were, it is never a good thing to have offended, so for that I'm sorry..
Ct
Kadek
[quote=BaliLife]
Are you arguing that indonesia has not trailed comparable nations?
Are you arguing that religion is not part of the problem in indonesia?
Are you arguing that low education levels are not part of the problem in indonesia?
Are you suggesting that indonesia's leaders are doing the right things to move indonesia forward?
Ct[/quote]
Balilife,
I don't want to take your postings to pieces and point out what were offensive in them as I am sure you are aware of what they might be. You have pointed out many valid critisisms about Indonesia and the lack of progress on many fronts. Of course, it is often unavoidable to generalised, I too have used generalisation. But this is no prerequisite to use denegrating words such as that you have used to described Indonesians (which by the way you used quite often when referring to frustration you may have about Indonesians). Perhaps in your opinions using such strong words reinforced the points you are making, but they are unnecessarily offensive in my point of view.
Low education levels of still a large number of people, economic greed of the elites, religions all play their parts in the complications. However, people who are not very educated, or haven't enjoyed good economic standing and have turned to their beliefs for some comforts are in my opinion not entirely at fault by themselves. It is the elites that have not been generous enough to allow others (ordinary people) to grow as they themselves grow. Why? Maybe, because, they rely on low wages to ensure maximum benefits for themselves. We all love good things at bargain prices. Often we are not thinking things can be so cheap because there are people working for crappy wages that couldn't even feed a family proper nutrition let alone afford a holiday. Yet we don't mind, because we have saved and then can afford to spend on other things. Our economy is based completely on consumerism, but yet we have limited resources on this earth to sustain continous growth and will eventually runs out if we don't look after it better. Yet we still don't mind because economic growth pay for our wages and keeps us employed.
Anyway, I am only posting to request a gentler discussion that can still be constructive and serious. I am in no position to argue and debate on many topics as I am not well informed on many of the issues talked about here.
Thanks
Kadek
FreoGirl
[quote=lumumba]Hi Mimpimanis,
Here the police can’t even direct traffic, completely useless at any given time, actually when they are not in the middle of the road the traffic flows much better.
I hope I haven’t started another problem by saying this but this is what I believe and [color=#FF0000]it is a fact.[/color][/quote]
Lumumba, please don't confuse your opinion with fact.
It is not a fact that Indonesian police can't direct traffic. They do direct traffic and considerably well in some of the most challenging and busiest roads and intersections in the world.
It is not a fact that Indonesian police are completely useless at any given time. It would be much worse in Indonesia if there were no police. Therefore they have a use.
Indonesian police are far, [i]far[/i], from perfect. But you need to take into account their training, resources, and the environment in which they work before passing judgement.
Stating that an opinion is a fact is imflamatory, and a generalisation that does not promote the discussion at all. In my opinion.
lumumba
Hi Freo,
I am very sorry for you but they are actually MORE THAN USELESS and if you tell me they are not, it is because you never really look at them when they are in the middle of the road and also I don’t think you have any idea or training regarding this subject. This problem is because there is NO TRAINING WHATSOEVER and not just lack of training. Environment has nothing to do.
Quoted: Indonesian police are far, far, from perfect. But you need to take into account their training, resources, and the environment in which they work before passing judgement.
By saying what you said above you just have confirm my early statement.
It would ONLY take ONE English/Italian policemen here to do a PERFECT JOB that takes 4 Indonesian police man to do it badly. (I keep talking about directing traffic and nothing else)
Dear Roy
Quoted: I’ve never had one bad experience with the police here in Bali. I find them patient, helpful, and very good at what they do. But those are only my own experiences.
I admire you because you said; but those are only my own experiences. Thanks and maybe you are also very lucky. If I have to list all my bed experience (and I’m not to try to be a big head but you can believe me, I am a very good driver) I would have to write quite a lot, I don’t really want to do this.
Quote: Your statement as fact is only fact in your own mind. You are wrong 100% and maybe you understand if you look at the last 2 bottom lines.
Dear BaliLife
I believe you are getting a bit soft after Bert told you off but it’s ok maybe you need to relax for a while
Quoted: It’s very hard to survive on their wages: I do agree with you but they can not direct traffic. If a simple waive of the hand (only one hand the other always holding the radio) meaning directing traffic I do believe that Freo and anyone else thinking so has a lot of problems understanding what should be done for directing traffic.
I could point out to you step by step what should be done when you are (police) in the centre of a crossing, but I think I will skip this sort of training.
Statement: Let me tell you that I do still in Bandung, West Java, and will move to Bali very soon but I’ve been in Bali many times, only 1 bad experience in directing traffic in Bali. You don’t see many police directing traffic, not me anyway.
FreoGirl
No need to be sorry for me lumumba, you are the one who is having trouble understanding the difference between opinion and fact.
I actually do know quite a bit about policing, both in my own country and Indonesia, and it simply is not true that there is no training. And a police officer's ability to perform their duty very much is affected by the environment in which they work. If you actually knew ANYTHING about policing, you would know that.
Those statements alone indicates to me that you really do not know anything about the subject and are just opinionating based on your observations and experience only, which are not fact, just opinions formed from what you have experienced and seen.
But perhaps you can't understand the concept or comprehend the difference? There is usually little point in debating a topic with someone who doesn't understand the difference between opinion and truth/fact, so I will leave it at that with you.
lumumba
My dear Milan,
I do answer since you are new to this subject.
One more clever brain on board.
THE TRUTH HURT
Polluting the air, I’d rather have Indonesian police than Italians as all they do is driving around with their car whilst on duty polluting the city
Ogling girls or stopping at a Bar for an espresso.
Again WHAT A VERY MISKIN STATEMENT.
Maybe you would like to be ogled too and are so upset because they don’t do it :lol:
Again I will rest my case with you
[color=#FF0000]OK, I will NOT follow anymore answer about this subject
[/color]
Roy
To be honest with Lumumba, I could care less what kind of a job the Bali police do, or do not do, at directing traffic. In all my years of living in Bali, I’ve always had a driver. Heck, I’ve never even backed our Kijang out of the garage!
Furthermore, since I hardly ever travel to points south in Bali, this only contributes to my complete lack of concern for the skills of Balinese traffic cops. Where we live, traffic cops are just not necessary, except occasionally in central Ubud.
As for the more important skills required of an effective police department, may I remind you that it was the forensic department of Polda (the Bali Police), who cracked the case of the first Bali bombing leading to the arrest of the first suspect, Amrozi, after being able to identify him as the owner (or renter) of the Mitsubishi van that was blown to bits. This was in spite of the assistance of several top forensic specialists from the Australian National Police and the FBI.
Next time you’re in Bali, pay a visit to the police academy in Denpasar. Who knows, you just might change your opinion about some things which you formed based solely on your limited exposure and excessive conjecture. Cheers!
milan
Great! You seem to know me very well and use personal attack again. Anyway, I don't want to be off topic but it was you who mentioned Italian police and not me. As you can see, I didn't take an issue with a UK police and I lived there too, ok?
tintin
Jimbo,
Shame on you for writing
[quote]My last word is that if you do not like it there are flights leaving for somewhere else every day.[/quote]
You try to play the wise old man, but even at your age, you still haven't learned the basics. This kind of statement is a TOTAL cop-out. I am sure your wise father-in-law would take you to the woodshed for such a pronouncement (but I wont tell him about it). :evil:
