BaliLife
Indonesia, 350 million jimbo? And singapore a few hundred thousand? Numbers are a bit off.. Singapore is able to maintain 'order' through common sense, and most important SECULAR policies, a principle the [color=#00BF00][/color] here are yet to fathom, that's the difference - in my opinion, population has nothing to do with it..
[color=#00BF00][/color]
Ct
SG
[quote]As an aside I really believe in the Pancasila as a philosphy and think it forms the basis for a great constitution.[/quote]
It's only a basis if the government tries to adhere to it. In Indonesia that is no longer the case (if it ever was) and we have a government elite whose primary philosophy is to serve itself rather than those it was elected by.
And i don't like Singapore much (it's the singularly most dull place on this planet) but their ruling elite has made a better job of the post colonial era than Indonesia's various disasters. If you were comparing dictators, give me Lee Kwan Yew over Pak Harto any day.
Or if we are talking non-secular, Malaysia is also light years ahead of RI. I watch and hope for Indonesia and it's greatest chance is its growing educated young middle class, but it seems to be slipping further and further backwards.
PS..there are 5 million Singaporeans.
[quote]The dutch sought to make them dumb here - and unfortunately they succeeded in their quest..[/quote]
Hard to disagree, and the 'fatherly' figures who have guided Indonesia since have adhered to the same philosophy.
SG
I'm curious Don, if you chose to comment on BaliLife's posts, why don't you read what he is actually saying rather than misunderstanding and putting words in his mouth.
It's not too much to ask surely.
Most Indonesians I know would agree with very large parts of what he is saying.
BaliLife
Thanks SG..
Don, if one didn't see the potential of indonesia, one mightn't feel so enraged..
[color=#008000][/color]
Ct
Sumatra
SG,
You're kidding right? Only 7% of Indonesians wash their hands after using the toilet?
What's this, are they exit polling at the mandi now?
Some sort of brown water Zogby poll I guess.
I'm no expert on Indo toilet habits but it's my understanding and only from a muslim perspective, that soap and water is always necessary after tending to ones private number [u]2[/u] business. Also, 200,000 is a big number, I think a million people every five years would certainly be missed and talked about more publicly by the world health organization, don't you?
Please keep it real and if this is real, please post your source of information.
The Don
Jimbo
Thanks for the update on the Singapore figure which was why I put Million in brackets. I still think what I said numbers aside has the element of truth. Singapore and to a lessor extent Hong Kong were much easier to control as city states rather than as a country.
I also do not disagree about the dictatorships but both when they came to power tried to do the right things and both failed. I cannot in all honesty talk about the existing set of politicians in Indonesia as I am not there on a daily basis but a few months ago when they were electing governors I talked to a lot of local people and they seemed to get the one they wanted.
Politicians get in power because there is a political dictatorship (Witness Russia with Putin due to get back in for another 12 years) or by spending a lot of money as in the American elections or by political parties putting up their candidates etc.
I think Indonesias politicians are not in any different catagory and there are good and bad. It is people that keep the corruption going by agreeing to pay and of that we may all be guilty. As an example who do you think is the worse, a corrupt official or the person that bribes them to gain advantage. Another...a poor prostitute trying to earn money which she sends to her family or a rich western tourist who takes advantage of that poverty.
Perhaps that is another debate :D
SG
[quote]I also do not disagree about the dictatorships but both when they came to power tried to do the right things and both failed.[/quote]
?? Suharto massacred up to a million Indonesians..I'm not sure if that's doing the right thing?
I think you are meaning Sukarno..yes I guess he tried initially but his failure was massive..just about bankrupting the nation, going to war with a neighbour, the dismantling of the democratic state, pissing off just about every country he came into contact with. I don't think, on the other hand Lee could be described as a failure. He may not be a democrat but he took Singapore into the stratosphere.
Then, he did have one substantial advantage at the beginning...no history of Dutch colonialism. They have a lot to answer for (but it's also long since past time when Indonesia should stop blaming them..the ills of RI are very firmly the responsibility and the result of Indonesian actions and failures now).
BaliLife
I agree SG, everybody seeks to find excuses for the RI, but in reality countries with just as greater challenges have advanced politically and economically at a far greater pace than indonesia..
If indonesia's legitimate justification is its sprawl and diversity - then the answer for the government is simple - redefine where indonesia begins and ends - but I don't buy the arguement that this is the challenge indonesia faces - that's more of an opportunity than it is a challenge. The real challenges are stupidity, religion (which feeds and is fed by stupidity) and corruption. Additionally the view from jakarta that indonesia is an islamic nation is repulsive.
Unfortunately the reforms indonesia needs are hard to implement in an absolute democracy as they're generally unpopular with the uneducated masses. These reforms need to be first and foremost based on a secular constitution..
Ct
Sumatra
Balilife I'm curious,
You look upon Indonesians with such contempt, why did you choose to interact and then continue to live amongst these "[color=#008000][/color]" anyway? Did you ever stop to think of how cruel and cutting your words are to the Indonesians on this forum who read them?
Did you use the "[color=#008000][/color]" remark as a narrow description of Indonesian politicians or, do you really think you're the great white god, who's head and shoulders above the savages, with philosophies and theories "[color=#008000][/color]" simply can't comprehend?
This shit attitude makes you no better than the Dutch you vilify.
You ingratiously insult our adopted people and the anglo-saxons who've married into this wonderful culture, yourself included.
The Adolph :)
SG
And isn't it slightly better to care about where this country is going rather than poking one's head in the sand. On just about every level Indonesia is slipping further and further behind it's Asian neigbours. I can only think of one, Myanmar, which is doing worse and that is for obvious reasons.
Myself, I love Indonesia as a country and yet I weep to see what is happening to it. I travel a lot, throughout Asia and the Pacific on work and I see China, Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam, even India, going ahead in leaps and bounds and you are insulting Indonesians and Indonesia if you don't ask the question why.
As I say,many Indonesians ask the same question and come up with the same answers BaliLife gets.
Or do we all just roll over and accept that that is the way it is?
lumumba
Quoted by Kadek
[color=#4040FF]You're kidding right? As an Indonesian, I understand and also am frustrated about how slow things are moving forward sometime. SOMETIME, this is the best part of it.[/color]
Let me tell you something; the only things moving fast forward are the motorbike on the road and not only forward but also sideways.
I could agree with the rest.
mimpimanis
Hi balilife - that was a quick return! :lol:
BaliLife
Hi mimp.. A quick return from what?
Ct
Sumatra
SG,
I didn't misunderstand any of his political musings in fact, I agree with both of your assertions, in that for every step Indonesia seems to take forward, it takes about five backwards. Very frustrating for those who of us who do recognize Indonesia's potential.
Rather, I take exception to his unflattering remarks of the people. Maybe he should have this discussion with my electrical engineer brother-in-law over a game of chess and then we'd see who ends up looking like a "monkey".
Balilife,
You need to step outside of your box and take a good 360 degree look around. You're in the heart of a muslim dominated country young chap!!!! In a combination state of insecurity and ignorance you continually slam muslims and the stupidity of their beliefs, many of your posts are rife with glaringly open insults and cutesy backhand remarks about Islam. Why not live and let live?
It's obvious your rage stems from being way outside of your emotional security zone, which is probably Vancouver, BC or, somewhere in Oz. When I'm in Sumatra surrounded by muslims, I never have to worry about pigs ogling my wife with sexual conquest/rape on their minds, or some queer, pervert snatching my 12yr. old boy to molest him.
I have a level of comfort while on Sumatra that can never be achieved living in the United States. I fail to see why this makes me a baboon.
The Dolph :)
Bert Vierstra
Kadek, I am grateful for your contribution to this thread.
It is sad if people immediately run out on discussions without voicing their opinion or showing their side of the medal.
lumumba
Quoted by Kadek
you’re kidding right? As an Indonesian, I understand and also am frustrated about how slow things are moving forward sometime.
SOMETIME, this is the best part of it.
I think and I’m sure it is very easy to understand. You are stating that things SOMETIMES are moving slowly.
Slowly ALL THE TIMES, not sometimes
Regarding the motorbike I leave it to your imagination to find out.
I will rest my case right here and right now.
PS; it is “funny” in one way, all started with a simple “first police pull” by Mimpinanis and degenerated into……………..we all know what.
I wonder what Mimpinanis thinks about it, probably ‘I wish I never said anything………..
Regards
BaliLife
[quote=Sumatra]In a combination state of insecurity and ignorance you continually slam muslims and the stupidity of their beliefs, many of your posts are rife with glaringly open insults and cutesy backhand remarks about Islam.[/quote]
i slam all religions and denominations sumatra - not only islam or particularly islam for that matter.. in fact, even though i was christened an anglican (from my mother's side) and went to a catholic high school, i find most atrocities inflicted upon mankind have been perpetrated by christians..
[quote=Sumatra]Maybe he should have this discussion with my electrical engineer brother-in-law over a game of chess and then we'd see who ends up looking like a "monkey".[/quote]
oh yes of course, because i clearly remember saying that every living indonesian was an uneducated moron.. you really are thick..
[quote=Sumatra]When I'm in Sumatra surrounded by muslims, I never have to worry about pigs ogling my wife with sexual conquest/rape on their minds, or some queer, pervert snatching my 12yr. old boy to molest him.[/quote]
have i ever suggested that i live in fear of such here? quite the opposite - i too would say that without exception, i feel far safer here than in canada and about the same as i do in australia.. before you start raising the righteous flag of defending islam (it's obvious you're intent on re-branding yourself from 'bigot' to 'libertarian') - half my family are muslims dopey.. my father is iranian - so unlike you, who has about as much exposure to the outside world as a candlestick inserted up a mole's arsehole - i do have cultural diversity to reference - rather significantly..
ct
SG
See, I find little to argue with in this statement:
[quote]
Unfortunately the reforms indonesia needs are hard to implement in an absolute democracy as they're generally unpopular with the uneducated masses. These reforms need to be first and foremost based on a secular constitution.. [/quote]
I think that democracy works only when the populace is educated and that is the first and foremost requirement for a government in this country in 2008. The level of illiteracy, both linguistic and mathematical, in Indonesia, terrifies me as I travel through this country and it doesn't get any better. The spend on education here is abysmal and the powers that be, the ones who stand for the legislature, and the same old regime names that have once again put their names in the hat for the Presidency are happy to keep it that way.
There are many very very smart people and a growing educated middle class in many Indonesian cities and one has to cross ones fingers that somehow, someone will find a way through the self serving morass to lead Indonesia. Look at China, I'm no Communist but without the firm hand of the party there and in Vietnam I doubt they would be leaving Indonesia in the dust as they both very much are.
I'm not advocating a dictatorship either by one man or a party but Indonesia is crying out for a very strong visionary in the near future or it's in huge trouble.
BaliLife, isn't the issue with Islam that the religion's teachings require that the state is subservient to the the faith. There is an argument often made that that is the reason for the failure of Islamic states to progress and survive historically. In secular states science and education exist in their own right, whereas in Islamic states they must be subservient to he religion.
In Indonesia common sense seems to be sadly subservient to religion to a greater and greater extent.
drbruce
This is my last post on this forum since it seems to have been taken over by anti-religious bigots who have little knowledge of Islam, little respect for Indonesia, and little knowledge of the educational system in Indonesia. I've been thinking about how to continue to participate in a forum that I've been a member of for a number of years when it's been filled recently with hostility, profanity, and a lot of verbiage about very little that has to do with Bali or the Indonesia that some of us know.
I've been in this country for quite a while, I made my commitment to living here with my family and doing what I can to help in whatever small ways I can. To read comments about monkeys continually sickens me, and reminds me that other forums that I take part in don't seem to have these problems.
Balilife and SG, do some studying, spend some time with the common folks in this country, and I don't mean talking to the guy that owns the warung on the corner, or your driver. Learn something about how this country actually works. Do any of you have children in the school system, have you taught in the school system, are you Muslims, have you engaged yourself with the folks that try to bridge the gap between religions, cultures and ethnic groups here? You talk about intolerance, but what you write continually is just the other side of what the religious zealots write. Please don't come up to our area and infect it with your hatred and bigotry.
mimpimanis
Hi Lumumba
Infact I was about to bring it back to the original topic, on a lighter note. Because I very nearly had my second pull a few days later. I was on the bypass heading back from Makro to Jimbaran and at the lights for the turn off for Benoa, I was chatting and a bit distracted and pulled into the empty left hand lane. Forgetting that here usually cars can turn left on a red light.
When a car pulled up behind me and beeped I looked up to see the police motioning me over to their little office... :roll: It was only by chance I saw them, so I pretended I didnt and did a left turn. Rather than do a U turn right away and still have to deal with them I ended up paying Rp3000 to go into Benoa harbour and had a drive around there for 10 minutes. :oops:
