Sanurian
Welcome to the "club", [b]mimpimanis[/b]
[quote]... I was stopped on a zebra crossing...a private car stopped on crossing/road markings...[/quote]
It doesn't sound like you were really ripped-off, as such. But you have to laugh about how "seriously" police take this, "The wheel of your car was standing on a line-marking".
I've noticed a couple of new "pedestrian crossings" painted on the By-Pass around Sanur. They've got to be joking, right? Can anybody imagine traffic there coming to a halt while people attempt to cross?
:D
BaliLife
It's not the stop on the bypass in front of mcd's on the way to nusa dua is it mimpi?
I can't say if that went into his own pocket or not, but last time I was stopped in surabaya I got a pink 'receipt' too after being shown the charts and paying a 'fee'.. But as far as I know, if you get a legit ticket, you can't pay the cop for it there and then.. The magic words are usually, "bisa gurang pak?" - there's no guarantee that it can be less, but that basically says, "can we work something out?".. I'd be more surprised if a cop turned down a bribe, than if they didn't..
Anyhow, sounds like everything worked out well..
Ct
mimpimanis
Yes Balilife thats the place. And to be honest the zebra crossing is pretty well faded there, as I pointed out! I should have just jumped the light, I doubt they would have come after me :lol:
Sanurian - traffic stopping on the bypass for pedestrians, I doubt it. It always amazes me how even in the middle of a three point turn, or pulling out of parking onto a road, traffic wont stop for a second but will whizz around me at speed!
Made thought Rp50,000 was a lot but as I said I had broken a rule, I wouldnt stop on a zebra crossing in UK without thinking twice.... now I will here too.
mimpimanis
[quote]But as far as I know, if you get a legit ticket, you can't pay the cop for it there and then.. [/quote]
Maybe but to be honest I would rather pay Rp50,000 there and then rather than head off to Denpasar for hours to sort it out.... Not that I am condoning bribary as as far as I was concerned it was legit!
The funny thing is, as Made rightly pointed out, I got what I asked for. At the weekend a freind & I were talking about how everyone gets stopped and how we were waiting for it to happen to us, wanting it to happen, as we have all our papers in order (she on her bike) and I always use a seatbelt.... So my own fault in more ways then one! :lol: :lol:
mimpimanis
I got my first ever police pull for a driving violation today. I always say on forums how I have never been subjected to police corruption... and have to say even after today that I wasn't.
I was rushing to pick Martin up from school, having spent longer at the printers than expected. I was trying to make the traffic light before it changed but couldnt so braked and was the first in line at the lights. However I was stopped on a zebra crossing.
The policeman who stopped me and asked me to pull in and come to the office was kind enough to understand my predicament that I had to collect my son from school, and kept my car papers as security till I returned.
They explained I would have to go to Denpasar to pay the fine and collect my paper.... when I asked if I could send someone to collect it for me they said I could pay there and then if I didnt have time :wink: I was execting it to go straight in their pockets but they showed me the charts with rates for various fines and a private car stoped on crossing/road markings was Rp46,000. I gave them Rp50,000 (nobody had change) and I got a receipt/ paper with all the details on, without asking for one!
Someone else having been stopped might see this as police corruption but I see it as I was wrong, I was stopped and I paid a fine. I will be more cafeful in future.
As I drove off there was a tourist couple in a Jimny stopped on the same crossing and getting pulled over.
BaliLife
We've been stopped there for EXACTLY the same thing - that was over a year ago before we were living in sby, the driver paid him 20,000, which he thought was too high at that point in time.. Funny - they'd fine you for smiling if they could - just to get a bribe..
Ct
BaliLife
All this stuff that the indonesian govertment does (beyond traffic violations) - their so called reforms on tax, on construction, on pornography - it reforms absolutely nothing - just makes indonesia more corrupt and that much more unappealing to everyone.. This is why I was so negative in the 'corruption in indonesia' thread.. [color=#008000] [/color]
Ct
FreoGirl
I've spent some time in Singapore, in the 70's when it still had some more 'rustic' elements, and in this century. I've also spent some time in Indonesia - albeit not much in the populated cities of Java - and I find very little in common between Singapore & Indonesia culturally. Perhaps you see it differently as your experience is more with Chinese Indonesian culture, which is perhaps more culturally aligned with Singapore.
I can tell you that my family would be like fish out of water in Singapore, and the cultural shock would be almost as great as bringing them to Australia. The only difference in my opinion being language and skin tone.
BaliLife
I'm not saying indonesia would be or become singapore freo.. Did hk become england? No - it's still uniquely chinese but with better infrastructure, a far higher standard of living and more progressive legislature bodies..
Also, singapore's culture is very much influenced by all 3 cultural ethnicities (not including bule) - the malaysian (melayu) influence in singapore is significant and I'd sugguest it is not a vastly different culture than 'indonesia as a whole' - sure, indonesia has hundreds of cultures, but again 'as a whole', as a whole, there are many similarities between melayu and pribumi culture.. Language and religion to start with..
Ct
FreoGirl
[quote=SG] There are plenty of countries where the populace are not well educated where they people don't drive like homicidal maniacs and where the police make more than a self serving cursory attempt to enforce road law. [/quote]
For example?
SG
[quote=FreoGirl][quote=SG] There are plenty of countries where the populace are not well educated where they people don't drive like homicidal maniacs and where the police make more than a self serving cursory attempt to enforce road law. [/quote]
For example?[/quote]
Many of the Pacific Islands for example.
FreoGirl
Yeah, it's all a bit silly. Pedestrian crossings that no-body can use because they are ignored and poorly marked. Road rules that are only enforced during daylight hours when police are at work (e.g. helmet wearing). Road users who do not have an understanding of the road rules to start with because it is not part of gaining a license in the first instance. Drivers fined for pulling up at a set of lights with a wheel on a faded line, while others speed down the road at well over the speed limit or driving in a dangerous manner that would see them locked up in other countries.
Balilife, at least your friend [i]can [/i]say what he said these days. 10 years ago it just wouldn't happen. I still maintain that a Singapore government is NOT what Indonesia needs. Why pick Singapore? Let's pick Japan, or China! Now there's a government that knows how to organise their citizens. It's a silly notion and I'm sure just designed to stir.
One day, Indonesia will introduce a proper 'rule system' on their roads, and will have driver education. Over time driving standards will improve. For now, a good number of Indonesians are just trying to get a basic education to read & write - one step at a time.
BaliLife
Hi freo - well singapore might seem like mary poppins compared to how china organizes its people.. Japan I agree are masters - but the cultural divide is far greater than that between indo and singapore..
In business, if you're a builder for example, you don't waste 2yrs trying to figure out how to make bricks or how to produce steel rods, you find suppliers - hopefully the best, the most efficient and you use their products.. The same should be the case in building a country and establishing laws of the land.. Instead of indonesia wasting years trying to write it's own baseless laws, they should just copy/purge singapore's or even malaysia's.. The document could be rewritten in a week.. The reason why they wouldn't do that has nothing to do with grand visions of protecting indonesia's cultural heritage and has everything to do with those in power just wanting to remain there and remain the beneficiaries of corruption.. Take your pick, singapore, japan, malaysia, thailand - hell even india has their heads screwed on better..
Ct
SG
[quote]One day, Indonesia will introduce a proper 'rule system' on their roads, and will have driver education. Over time driving standards will improve. For now, a good number of Indonesians are just trying to get a basic education to read & write - one step at a time.[/quote]
I really don't agree with this. One relates to the rule of law, something that Indonesia is lacking, the other to education per-se. There are plenty of countries where the populace are not well educated where they people don't drive like homicidal maniacs and where the police make more than a self serving cursory attempt to enforce road law. This is a corruption and management / higher-up incompetence issue. And why, at least where I go regularly in Central Java, are the police so much more able to enforce road rules than Bali.
SG
But just to clarify. Many of the issues on the road here are straight enforcement issues..take for example the red light running. Cops sit idly by whilst cars run red lights..not just red but long red. I've seen several accidents over the years, none fatal happily, caused by this. I wonder how many lives or injuries could be saved if this was enforced by the same cops who are concerned about a wheel on a useless zebra crossing marking.
Or getting the 7 year olds off the motorbikes. They are doing this in Tabanan apparently with some success.
Then there was the campaign to get headlights turned on on motorbikes. Good idea but the police didn't enforce it so it was ignored.
Or stop signs enforced or driver's licences requiring testing rather than an exchange of cash. None of these have anything to do with education. Or passing on the inside and keeping in lanes (which causes much of the macet at intersections). All enforcement simply requiring a will.
That said, driving in Indonesia's road provides a pretty reasonable body of evidence that common sense is taught, not instinctive.
mimpimanis
One of the other Bali forums had a photo this week of the results of a motorbike carrying jerry cans of petrol after it collided with a car. Sparks caused the petrol to ignite and everything went up in a fireball.
I must see people with carrying petrol on their bikes every single time I go out. Now the thought of what could happen will be on my mind anytime I am infront or behind one of them!
BaliLife
[quote]None of these have anything to do with education. Or passing on the inside and keeping in lanes (which causes much of the macet at intersections). All enforcement simply requiring a will.[/quote]
I disagree SG - only with education does the public will exist to ensure the laws are enforced. Without education, laws are seen simply as a pain in the arse and a way for corrupt cops to cash in. With an educated public, corruption, nepotism and stupidity aren't passively tolerated, instead such are challenged..
Ct
Jimbo
There is a difference between running a city with a few hundred thousand (million) inhabitants and a country with 350 million ove 3500 Kms wide and many different ethnic groups.
I also remember a time when you could not have long hair and had to follow the draconian laws og PM Lee. Singapore works because it is controlable. Indonesia is a completely different story and I see no other country to compare it with.
For all its faults there are many who are trying to change it for the better and I believe in the end they will succeed.
As an aside I really believe in the Pancasila as a philosphy and think it forms the basis for a great constitution.
SG
[quote=mimpimanis]One of the other Bali forums had a photo this week of the results of a motorbike carrying jerry cans of petrol after it collided with a car. Sparks caused the petrol to ignite and everything went up in a fireball.
I must see people with carrying petrol on their bikes every single time I go out. Now the thought of what could happen will be on my mind anytime I am infront or behind one of them![/quote]
We were driving from Jepara to Semarang yesterday and in front was a truck tailgating a petrol tanker at speed..maybe one metre behind him.. We explained to Ali, our driver, that in most countries that is illegal and you can be heavily fined. He was surprised. It hadn't occurred.
A TV campaign on a thing like tailgating costs very little as most stations are required to provide some public service airtime, and it's worth noting that it's only a few years since virtually no helmets were worn on bikes.
SG
[quote]I disagree SG - only with education does the public will exist to ensure the laws are enforced. Without education, laws are seen simply as a pain in the arse and a way for corrupt cops to cash in. With an educated public, corruption, nepotism and stupidity aren't passively tolerated, instead such are challenged.[/quote]
To a degree, but the helmet law [i]is[/i] working. Sure you see people without helmets on the back roads, but never, unless for religious reasons, on the main roads in Bali anymore. And the same with the safety belt law. They may not be universal but they are widely worn compared to never a few years back.
And I'd even comment, that at least in Bali, there is a noticeable reduction in cops with their hands out on the roads. I used to get hit up weekly but now its been six months (fingers crossed) and I know others who are saying the same thing.
And witness the tough enforcement of garbage disposal in Denpasar right now. I go to the city at least 5 times a week and the improved state of the waterways is very noticeable. The big stick is being waved over that and it's working.
