BaliLife
I definitely don't prefer any indonesian way of wiping an arse over that of the west.. I'm with you on this one tin..
Ct
mimpimanis
I have Balinese/Lombok pembantus and staff. That is they are second generation balinese born and grew up in Lombok but their parents are balinese and they live in balinese villages within Lombok.
In 11 years and through 5 staff I have never had a problem with hygene with any of them. They mandi twice a day at least - more if we are going out. Iluh who is here with me in Bali is the hardest working pembantu I have ever known. Even when I offered to bring in one more of the girls from Lombok she said she prefers to work alone and know its all done and felt there was not enough work for two of them.
Infact re hygene - I find that the balinese actually think that tourists are dirty and often smell and I justiy that to them, explaining that many are not used to the heat and even if they are showering regularly, they are sweating a lot more than the balinese would, hence the smell of sweat.
And the two non Balinese staff I have had have both been caught cheating me. One Lombok girl and one Javansese. Not actually stealing but saying the shopping cost more than it did. I also had a million go missing from my bag when I had a javanese pembantu. No proof it was her but there was only her and me in the house at the time - she insisted I must have been mistaken but I had been to the atm and not spent anything since.
SO MY[b] PERSONAL [/b]EXPERIENCE leads me to stick with BALINESE STAFF.
Bert Vierstra
[quote=BaliLife]
I've noticed that Balinese maids in general are far less hygienic and in general, rather lazy.
In any case, I suggest if you have a Balinese made that you're not happy with, upgrade to a Javanese..
I still tend to believe the laziness generalization has some weight.
[/quote]
I don't agree with you. I have noticed something different.
[quote=BaliLife]
But Bert, back to your point - 'your girl' is in your house 7 hours a day. Isn't that all the more reason to have the best person available? A person that you don't need to tutor on how to clean / bathe?
Why wouldn't you just go onto the next person, just as would an employer in the west?
[/quote]
Did you "tutor" her? Because that is what we did... with some results.... And it is more rewarding then the "10 others for you, next plz"
And, (not in my case) its not always a good idea to replace your "staff" with workers from Java (or other parts). People appreciate it very much if you hire people from the village where you live. This will be different in places like Seminyak I guess.
I know of a few people in the Ubud area who have been forced to hire people from the village they reside in.
tintin
Bert writes:
[quote]I know of a few people in the Ubud area who have been forced to hire people from the village they reside in.[/quote]
It's even done on a larger scale than a "few (individual) people" all over the Island. It is absolutely common practice, and I would add well justified, for a village to insist that a new hotel should employ a certain % of locals in their support staff, as much as 30 – 40 %. For a kind-hearted person like my good friend Agung Prana, from the Royal House of Mengwi, it comes naturally ("I came to your community to make money, and the community should also profit from my enterprise"). But more often, it is plainly understood by the hotel's owner that if this is not acceptable to him, "an accident" could well happen on the premises… :wink:
Roy
Daniel, I knew there was something about you that was attributable to your toilet training. :P
I’m with Bert, in that I also “feel cleaner the Balinese way.”
If my adopting the “Balinese toilet way” means that I’ve really “gone so far down the deep end” then so be it. I am much happier (and cleaner) for it, thank you. :D
tintin
I'm sorry, Roy, but playing with one's own shit is definitely for very young children or perverts. Children usually find themselves overflowing with pride and admiration for their fecal creations, said Freud, and that's probably all that you can create. :roll:
Roy
Hey, Daniel, you are the self professed rocket scientist, so I gladly defer to your greater knowledge of “after burners, spent fuel residue” and etc. I guess if I spent the greater part of my life building nuclear bombs and contributing to the proliferation of nuclear weapons, (all of which you have previously mentioned on this forum), I would also know something about Freud, and his present day proponents...i.e., shrinks.
It’s interesting how it’s taken this discussion for you to show your true colors...which is really just one...dark brown. :x
Roy
Many thanks for your kind comments Milan. Just for the record though, I want to clarify one thing, and that is that Indonesia is not a third world country, rather it is classified by the UN as an emerging nation. IMHO, it is a distinction that is well worth mentioning. Cheers!
Ipanema
[quote=milan][quote]It's
Long before you were all born, Indonesia had soaps. Left hands are not used out of respect since toilet papers are not in our custom as it is also perceived non-hygenic since there's no contact with water but have always used soap and water instead and not because they are dirty.
[/quote][/quote]
After being left no option but to adopt my partners custom I am totally converted. I must say when I got back home I now feel that western hygiene is not so clean.
BaliLife
Furthermore, my wife is as disgusted by Ketut's filth as I am..
Roy
Sorry Daniel, if you need instructions on how to clean yourself, ask your mom or dad. Then again, either one of my three boys could teach you, but they would want to be paid for the effort.
As for me, I think it’s time to flush this string.
Nice to see that you are reading the archives though. Hopefully by reading some of my old posts, you are learning something about Bali.
Cheers!
tintin
Our friend, Mister-know-it-all, has yet declared once more the Balinese superiority over the West. This time it's in the area of hygiene. He opines,
[quote]… hygiene standards here in Bali are better than in the West.[/quote]
WARNING. For those of you readers who have a weak stomach, I advise you to stop reading right here and go for a walk around the block once or twice, and come back later.
So, I will ask Roy to tell us what is the Balinese yearly consumption of toilet paper? (Purchases of this item by establishments catering to tourists, hotels, restaurants, mom-&-pop homestays, etc, should be excluded). The answer is very simple: practically zilch, nada, zero.
It goes without saying that good hygiene is a little more than a daily bath (or two), especially considering that bathing in the polluted rivers and ditches of Bali is not exactly hygienic either (although, I do not criticize those people who have no other choice, being too poor to own even a small [i]mandi[/i]). I think our friend should go out more often on Sundays, and see how the "other half" lives, unless of course, he's gone so far down the deep end that he has adopted the "Balinese toilet way". :roll:
I can attest from my own experience that one does not have to go in rural Bali, as many of you can also attest, that even a "sophisticated" village like Ubud is no exception: in an average home, you do not find any toilet paper in the [i]mandi[/i]. As a matter of fact, these places are, for the most part, rather repulsive. Without being "technical" about this subject, I will only point out that water by itself, is not exactly considered a disinfectant, especially when further consider that a bar of soap is not always available. As a rather obvious example, just consider the recent epidemic in Karangasem Regency…How did it happen and how did it propagate? I am surprised that this does not happen more often in Bali….
Going back to BaliLife's pembantu problem, I bet he did not think of this one, which is a little more serious that just BO. :lol:
milan
[quote]It's nice to know that nothing much has changed over the past four hundred and some years of relations between the colonials and the "natives". Westerners are still complaining about their maids and still making sweeping generalizations based on little more than "personal experience."
[/quote]
Very well said, drbruce.
I feel sorry for the Indonesian women or wives you guys have. There's no minimal of respect towards them whatsoever but laughing on such preposterous things behind their backs. I don't know about Daniel, but do save your French and bidet comment as the Italians laugh at you for NOT having bidet in your bathrooms, and for myriad other things as well. Please don't let me start.
And Balilife, being half Iranian. You just don't know either what comments I hear about you, but you know what? I'm not going to stoop down to your level as to opt for a tit-for-tat comments just for amusement or provocation.
Once again, I ask you to have some respect towards the country you live in especially the women you are with and for this very reason, I take my hat off to Roy for upholding his family highly as in respecting his wife's culture, traditions and country. He's indeed a civilised man.
I'm no Balinese but am Indonesian and thus take your comments about the Balinese are very offensive!!
Long before you were all born, Indonesia had soaps. Left hands are not used out of respect since toilet papers are not in our custom as it is also perceived non-hygenic since there's no contact with water but have always used soap and water instead and not because they are dirty.
Besides, this thread is about "servants". That alone should give you perspectives as to what backgrounds they are from, in that they are not educated, trained according to what some of the people in the West so ignorantly expect.
And Indonesia is still a third world country which is a complex country to run given its size.
And yet, you people just continuously talk down as though there is perfection where you come from. You should be ashamed of yourselves.
BaliLife
Oh get over yourself Milan!
I've had my share of disagreements with Roy and I've had my share or agreements with him, but you've had your nose lodged so far up his arse unconditionally, you can probably see his upper intestine.. Stop sucking up - it's really sickening!
What the hell is your post about anyway? The post I put up was not about my wife or the wives of members on this forum. BUT if a member of this forum is married to an unhygienic woman who wreaks of BO from morning through night then YES, consider it about them!
And the rubbish you rambled on about soap, etc is just horsesh*t.. As tintin pointed out, crapping in a small stream that people wash in is not hygienic, and getting excrement under your fingernails isn't either.. Most of the time I go to a public toilet anywhere in Indo, locals go straight for the door, without even stopping at the basin. Everyday (YES EVERYDAY) I see Javanese men in the mall, washing their penises in the frigging urinal!! Don't talk to us as though we're all idiots. Hygiene is about a number of things - education, means and culture. I would say in all 3 of these areas indonesia (and yes Bali), is behind the west - and therefor a far less hygienic place! Why the hell do you think westerners are advised to get the full works of immunizations (including hep a & b shots) before going to indonesia??
I don't give a toss if you're offended or not - given your propensity to just agree with, worship and suck on Roy's every word, I don't really trust that you have an opinion of your own. Let me tell you something else - your unconditional praise of him at times probably makes him feel pretty uncomfortable - not that he'd admit it, so if I were you, I'd take it back a few notches..
Ct
drbruce
Ah Bert,
Indiana is an archeologist more or less; I'm an anthropologist.
Ipanema
[quote=tintin]Roy opines,
[quote] And if you or Tina want to explain why it is more hygienic to wipe one's ass with one's hands instead of paper (and then still wash you hands after), I am receptive. :lol: :lol:[/quote][/quote]
Tin Tin I am not going to go into specifics here. Maybe I had a good teacher I do not know but it was my first experience where I did not have western toilets available.
BaliLife
Well at least your post was entertaining thorsten, and I'm touched kadek remembered my age. Yes, I'm sure at 29 there is still much for me to learn - I'd hope anyone at any age would feel there's still much they could learn, but perhaps you don't. I can't help but sense a slight amount of resentment in your post. Don't worry, next time you're in town I'll take you out, so you can see how the 'other side' of society lives - you can keep your immitation LV wallet in the pocket of your fake Levis..
Milan - yours was the same old dribble, full of erroneous references to me slandering all Balinese. I happen to spend at least one week (often 2) in Bali every month, which equates to one or two more than you.
Ct
tintin
Roy opines,
[quote]I guess if I spent the greater part of my life building nuclear bombs and contributing to the proliferation of nuclear weapons, (all of which you have previously mentioned on this forum)[/quote]
My poor deluded friend. You complained on several occasions that I had misread some of your ravings on this Forum, and advised me to learn how to read. I would strongly suggest that it's [u]you[/u] who should learn how to read. You already recently published this lie once before, and I already took the time to refute it once. I went back in the archives where I had explained how I had refused to work on atomic weapons development for the French Government, and later, in the USA, how I kept clear of this type of occupation (in my days, about 90% of the physicists in the US were engaged in weapon research: it was where the money was), and published it anew. I also published some of your comments at the time, including you congratulations for my refusing to become an accomplice to mass murder. But I guess you make it up as you go along. Since you know my name, I would suggest you Google it and you will see practically all of my hundred + publications: none of them are about topics which even remotely would found applications in nuclear weapon technology (that is if you can read and more important understand).
Well, if you want to wipe your ass with your hand, left or right, or both, be my guest, as it fits your personality rather well. And regarding my refusal of working on nuclear weapons, come to think of it, maybe I shouldn't have, if they would have been used on your kind.
Now the topic at hand is hygiene, so if you want to explain to me how hygienic it is to bath in the polluted waters of the rivers and ditches of Bali, you have my undivided attention. And if you or Tina want to explain why it is more hygienic to wipe one's ass with one's hands instead of paper (and then still wash you hands after), I am receptive. :lol: :lol:
Roy
[quote]Don't worry, next time you're in town I'll take you out, so you can see how the 'other side' of society lives[/quote]
What does that mean? :o
BaliLife
you know, the 'other side' roy.. thorsten's post implies i'm a snob of 'high society'..
I quote:
[quote]indeed it must be disgusting to come home from lunch at Conrad’s and find a dirty spoon[/quote]
ct
