Sanurian
I found your post absolutely disgusting, offensive and totally uncalled for.
Whilst issues regarding hygiene are a legitimate concern and worthwhile exploring, the way you went about it is utterly deplorable. I would go as far as to say unforgivable!
Wake up to yourself.
:evil: :evil:
Bert Vierstra
It happens.
We once had a maid who's personal hygiene was below standard. Dewi had a talk with her and things became better. Later she was fired, because her sister had stolen something, and she knew about it. (or something)
This girl was member of a very poor family, living in the slums of Singaraja, and her father was even a priest, but their house was a dirty dump, little difference with a garbage dump.
However, this has been an exception.
So, to state that a Javanese girl in general would be "an upgrade", is silly. However people also say that it is better to have Javanese workers for building. Even in the North there are men from Java working.
Do you know anything about the background of the girl?
Jimbo
I cannot believe what I have just read. Whilst there are exceptions to every rule the standard of hygene even in the kampungs is far higher than in the west. I have never known any Indonesian wether from Bali or elsewhere to bathe less than twice a day.
To generalise in this way is inexcuseable and IMO deliberately designed to provoke :evil:
Bert Vierstra
The "generalization" for working men is quite common, and also comes from the locals.
A few men from Java I spoke to said the same. "The Balinese are lazy", and "Where are the girls?" .....
Roy
I agree with Jimbo on this one, 100%. As is well known, I live in a Balinese kampung, and I know fully well that our villagers bath at least twice a day...when first awake and before bed, and more often, three times a day...meaning before attending temple.
I’ve never encountered any hygiene problems with any Balinese I have come in contact with, and I agree with Jimbo’s words that for the most part, hygiene standards here in Bali are better than in the West.
Bert Vierstra
[quote]Bert - I don't know, and honestly I've never thought to ask. With all due respect, while a good maid is precious, a bad maid is easy to replace, so why might one go to the trouble?[/quote]
Because "our girl" is in our home for about 7 hrs a day, and usually more than just "a worker".
Bert Vierstra
BTW Balilife, your ARE generalizing, not only about "your" pembantus.
BaliLife
Ok, I hope this doesn't become too controversial and I'm making the following statement/s based on my experience.
The statement:
*******************************
The Balinese maids I've encountered and had work for us are far less hygienic than our Javanese maids - they're also a lot lazier.
*******************************
Our current maid at the villa we stay at whenever in Bali, named Ketut - is more filthy than a sewer rat. She absolutley stinks and it is clear that it is from not bathing more than once every 4 days. If a maid of ours had such an odour, we'd immediately tell her to deal with it or get lost. The situation is complicated by the fact that she's not our maid. The villa we stay at belongs to friends (who are never there) and she works for them. The last 3 trips, we've bought at least one of our Java maids with us and we tell her never to trust anything cleaned by Ketut and to reclean it. Ketut is an extreme case that's for sure, but I've noticed that Balinese maids in general are far less hygienic and in general, rather lazy.
I picked up a small spoon from the drawer this morning to feed the kids cereal. Fortunately I looked at it first. The back of it was encrusted with mouldy cheesecake from 3 days before - the dirty wench had just taken it from the sink and thrown it in the drawer. I was so furious I told my wife, "that's it, she can have 25,000", for a period that we'd usually give 200,000 - it was the final straw. When she leaves a room, it takes 3 hours for her stench to follow her.
I know what the laziness is attributed to - years of tourists 'going easy' on them and applying western expectations and mannerisms in their dealings with them - that's fine.. Each to their own - I personally prefer a harder working maid and all ours are live in so that makes a difference.
But the hygiene thing to me is inexcusable. No attention to detail when cleaning, themselves or the house. Perhaps Javanese maid's self hygiene can be attributed to Islam and the requirement to wash before prayers, which most follow.
In any case, I suggest if you have a Balinese made that you're not happy with, upgrade to a Javanese..
Ct
BaliLife
Sanurian - I'm not apologizing, so don't expect one, and I'm not seeking your forgiveness. Like I stated in the first sentence, it is based on my experience and if someone can articulate a different experience (as did Bert), I'd love to hear it.
Jimbo - I didn't generalize about Balinese - I generalized about the Balinese pembantus that I've had dealings with. I'm within my rights to make the observation. I have to strongly disagree with your findings regarding the kampungs. If you were correct, then filth born diseases such as TB would be more prevalent in the west than in Indonesia - clearly not the case.
Bert - I don't know, and honestly I've never thought to ask. With all due respect, while a good maid is precious, a bad maid is easy to replace, so why might one go to the trouble? It's very humane of you and I admire that. But at the same time like I say, there's no shortage of girls out there looking for work as a pembantu - why wouldn't you just go onto the next person, just as would an employer in the west?
The builder thing is very true, and it is also based on a very widely held belief that javanese tukangs are harder working, don't have so many holidays and actually they're believed to do a better job.
There are generalizations all throughout indonesia, some have merit, some don't - but the ones that have survived may have survived for a reason..
Finally, to Sanurian and Jimbo - like I said, it was a reference based on what I've experienced. It would've been a generalization had I stated as a matter of fact that "Javanese maids are better and cleaner than Balinese". I didn't do that, I stated that that is what I have found.
Now, here are some generalizations (good and bad) that I readilly hear.. I will not say which ones I've found to be true or false, they are merely the ones I and I assume others have heard a lot:
These are in no particular order:
1. Balinese men are lazy, the women do all the work (I hear this a lot in Java)
2. Chinese Indonesians from Medan are cunning and most other Chinese Indonesians refrain from doing business with them (i hear this from chinese indonesians all over indonesia (except from medan of course))
3. Bandung has the prettiest women in Indonesia
4. People from central Java speak the best Javanese
5. People in jakarta build the garage before the house (to keep their shiny new cars that they couldn't afford)..
I'm sure there are thousands of others.. In any case these are sweeping generalizations, unlike my observation which was specific to Balinese and Javanese maids that I've dealt with.
Ct
Sanurian
Yeah, sure.
I probably did overreact. (Wouldn't be the first time.)
[quote]...She absolutley stinks and it is clear that it is from not bathing more than once every 4 days...[/quote]
Are you certain her odour is from a lack of bathing? Like, how do you know that? She doesn't sound very "Balinese" to me, [b]if[/b] that's the case. Perhaps she's using one of those dreadful cheap Indonesian "perfumes".
I liked your "sweeping generalisations" list. I hadn't heard this one before:
[quote]...5. People in jakarta build the garage before the house (to keep their shiny new cars that they couldn't afford)...[/quote]
I know there are thousands of others. Two more that I've heard a lot are:
1. Madurese women are the best sexual partners one could ever imagine, and
2. [i]Bules[/i] have the biggest sexual members
:twisted:
BaliLife
I think theft is not culture, but rather demographic related.
Friends of ours in Sanur caught their balinese maid going through the wife's purse. Similar things happen in Java and I'm sure everywhere else.
Ct
drbruce
It's nice to know that nothing much has changed over the past four hundred and some years of relations between the colonials and the "natives". Westerners are still complaining about their maids and still making sweeping generalizations based on little more than "personal experience."
Bert Vierstra
Thats a generalization, dr Indiana Pohlman :)
Bert Vierstra
Its not all cleanliness in de Desa's.
Once I visited Nagasepaha (North Bali), a village known for its glass painting:
http://www.bali-pictures.com/categories.php?cat_id=57
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/1999 ... itage.html
And in the house of a famous glasspainter the smell was almost unbearable. His wife, disabled, sat on the floor, in the house, covered in her own filth.
http://www.bali-pictures.com/details.php?image_id=139 (Not to clear a picture, but she was very dirty)
One of my most disappointing experiences in Bali.
milan
The photo of the woman is sad, Bert.
But not because I'm an Indonesian I want to defend. It's all a matter of individual and nothing to do with their ethnic background.
Perhaps the maid you happened to have, Balilife, is this untrained and inexperienced maid, so please give her some slack and not just generalise on account that they are Balinese.
How many times I had to let go certain maids in my days living in Jakarta and Singapore and it never occured to me to think or take based on their ethnicity. It's individual.
Living here in Italy also have its ups and downs and there are many unpleasant things or experiences that astound me even, but I'd rather keep them to myself as otherwise I'd be opening a can of worms and I can assure you, it'd be upsetting to hear.
Unless attacked, that is.
With the Malaysians I attacked back because we were attacked, that's all. But I commend their National ads on International tv channels as it's done with such great taste and originality. They use Malaysia Truly Asia song which is theirs and theirs alone. And the other night I saw a glimpse of the one celebration something. That also is excellent.
So, since this Forum is an International one and that of which represents Bali and Indonesia as a whole, I'm hoping that it's done with great taste and respect.
Thank you.
BaliLife
Ok, I should've been more selective in my language. I was still fuming from almost having fed my kids black mould..
I was not aware that most balinese wash twice daily as a matter of practice, so I've learnt something new. I still have a difficult time believing that hygiene standards are higher here than in the west. Every second westerner that comes here gets a bacterial stomach infection - indonesians who go to australia may get sick from the food but it's almost certainly not because of bacteria.. Food is prepared in conditions that are less sterile than in the west.. Part of it can be attributed to the humid climate which encourages the rapid growth of bacteria, but basic precautions, (such as not storing litchen utensils on the floor) are very often overlooked..
But Bert, back to your point - 'your girl' is in your house 7 hours a day. Isn't that all the more reason to have the best person available? A person that you don't need to tutor on how to clean / bathe?
Ketut's odour is definitely an accumalated BO, that's with her from morning through evening - if she had washed in the morning it wouldn't be with her at 7am when she arrives, as it is. I don't know her personal situation - but the fact that she smells terrible is of second importance to the fact that I'm in constant fear my children will be poisoned from the bacteria her shotty habbits nurture, and the fact that I can't walk barefoot around the house for fear of catching some type of toe fungus..
Bert, the situation you described with the disabled woman is tragic, but understandable - it's obviously more difficult to wash in such a condition. Ketut has no such excuse.
Sanurian, I've also heard the one about women from Madura - I'll never be able to verify that one unfortunately :-(
But, I must say, I still tend to believe the laziness generalization has some weight.. Let's face it, if you're in an environment where every second master is bule, that's likely going to rub off on you.. I.e. Bule tend to befriend their maids and not be their 'masters' - like I said, this is nice and all, but after a few decades, it starts to shine through in what they feel is expected.. I'm not suggesting being a heavy handed master is my style - it's not at all - and I often blast my in-laws if they tell the maids off in front of my son as I believe it gives him the wrong message - it tells him that they are below us which I don't believe they are. But what I'm saying is that that relationship between my in-laws (typical indo) and their maids almost ensures a greater productiveness from the maids that work for them, because they don't think they can get away with 80% effort.. That is the GENERAL mindset of the javanese maid who hasn't had the 'fortune' (so to say) of working for bule..
Ct
Bert Vierstra
Although the custom of giving right hands must come from somewhere, I don't think toilet paper makes much of a difference, if proper hygiene is applied.
Now, being in the Netherlands, I miss our large kamar mandi, and use toilet paper because otherwise its too much a hassle.
However, I feel cleaner the Bali way....
tintin
You feel cleaner the Balinese way :?: Remind me not to shake you hand when I meet you :lol: In that case, why don't you use the French way: toilet paper and a bidet :?: :lol:
BaliLife
Let's compare apples with apples.
Hours of work for my in-laws maids in Surabaya.
4.30am to 8pm 7 days / week. There are of course hours throughout the day they're not working. 4 days off every 3 months or so unless otherwise requested. I'm not about to suggest this is fair by western standards, but it's the way it is there.
Can anyone post the hours they've witnessed for their Balinese live-in maid?
Ct
Bert Vierstra
I think the [size=7][color=#FFBF40][b]Dutch[/b][/color] [/size]wiped their arse with the French (way) :P
Come one Tin Tin, save some trees...
