SG
I think Tintin's example is appropriate to this thread and goes to the argument that corruption exists everywhere, even at the highest level. And indeed, in Western countries which don't rate badly on the Transparency global corruption scale.
My own country of NZ has had some fairly glaring examples over the years, in the millions, especially in various civic projects. These cost the people millions indirectly but I guess because its almost impossible to bribe a cop or a teacher, the country sees itself as "clean". Lets face it contract corruption exists everywhere in the west, and we're talking billions of dollars at times.
But its easy to point the finger at Indonesia and say "corrupt" when its just called something else in a "developed' nation.
Myself, I think Indonesia is making leaps ahead and is tackling these things..and at least there is an admission at the top that there is a problem.
Incidentally GWBs path to Harvard is fairly well documented in a very readable book called Dynasty by a guy whose name escapes me, a former Reagan / Nixon WH staffer
Jim Thorpe
SG,
I don't agree that this is government corruption since this is a private university. And if so a much better example would be Al Gore, where his SENATOR father got him into Harvard.
If you wanted to make a point about corruption or unfair practices in the police force or in western government don't you think that there are about a million better examples than GW getting into Harvard? Do you want me to start a list? I am certain that you and I can get to a couple of hundred as fast as our fingers could type.
Here is the root of the problem. Bert is hosts this nice cocktail party, most everyone has a good time but there are one or two that continue to lack the social graces that make a party enjoyable. Such as politness to fellow party quests who are enjoying other conversations. One party quest continues to want to tell HIS story, shouting down the other talkers to drive the conversation where he wants to go...even when he knows that it is pissing people off. That is a bad guest. He may have the RIGHT to do so but it is still bad form.
Again, I think everyone on this forum can think of better examples that are more appropriate than what Tintin uses and the only reason this doesn't erupt into warfare more often is because others have the tact to be quiet and try to ignore the party pooper guest.
Jim Thorpe
SG,
I agree whole heartedly about what you have said. Corruption of some form is in every government...But Harvard can do what they want as a private organization, just as you can decide not to let me in your house. I don't have to know why I just have to do what you say. Harvard makes the rules and Harvard can break, change or just ignore them as they want as long as it isn't illegal. But as you say, and I am very comfortable this, we may just have to agree to disagree.
Your last point is well taken and again I agree with you! :D I didn't bring politics into this, nor did you. One person continues to bring politics into these discussions. This person's posts have started flame wars, people leaving the forum, demoting of moderators and who knows what else. Many of us have ignored this for a while but the thread jacking continues. There are MANY times I could post something that I find interesting and may to other forum members but haven't because it may be offensive to others. There are many times that I could post about world events that make me happy but don't because to others on the forum it could be offensive. It is called tact. While I am not yet an expert at this, I am attempting to get better at it and at least understand the concept. I have reached a point where tact may not be the best response but perhaps to continue to challenge the posts is the best answer.
Cheers!
Markit
Ok, I'll bite against my better judgment.
Jim I can perfectly understand Tintins explanations/complication with GWB - it comes from being an American or expat that has contacts with intelligent, discerning members of the world community and the fact that we are always (and I mean always!!!) looked on with a certain mystified wonder.
I'll explain that in a minute and it doesn't have to do with our beauty or charisma. This is not just my own experience but that of many, many of our countrymen based all over the world - we talk.
People in the past have, in general, looked up to America and Americans as representing a number of ideals about freedom, openness, democracy and yes, yes , "bull in a China shopishness" too and lack of education and naivety and etc. etc. But what previously has always brought it all together was the perception that whatever our failings, and they were legion, admittedly - [i]WE ALWAYS MEANT IT WELL[/i].
[b]That is gone and over[/b] - thanks GWB!
We are in the terrible position now of having to explain the unasked question that we, actually, didn't vote for him and yes he is an idiot and no, we don't agree with almost anything he says or does and yes, we will also be very relieved when it's all over too. Because the rest of the world is mystified. Most of them can not believe what we have done - don't get me wrong they have their problems too and bad politicians, God knows. But in the worlds eyes we have really taken the bacon with our presidential choice - hanging chads by the wayside.
We have to do this all the f*cking time, always. Trust me it gets old.
I thought I'd seen the last of it with Ronald bloody Raygun, too. How wrong can you be?
So don't be too hard on your normal, naive, semi intelligent, "bull in a china shop" Yank cause after all is said an done we do, actually [b]MEAN IT WELL.
Bali ho![/b]
Jim Thorpe
Markit,
Please don't suggest I don't know what others are saying or that I am too naive to understand. I do understand the discomfort felt by U.S. expatriates. I have not always been in Iowa and have spent a lot of time overseas. This has nothing to do with that. We ALL know how Tintin feels about Bush. I don't think it is a surprise to ANYONE. So why does he do this when he KNOWS it will upset people? He even says so in his post! So do I bring up bring up Clinton's rape of women everytime we discuss foreign policy and the rights of women in Bali? The bali global warming conference creating a carbon debt great than the country of Chad did in a year? When France elected a new leader, one that signals much closer ties to the U.S., did I start an aggressive post? Or the new German leader? On the last thread, did I post that Gore's dad getting him in Harvard was so famous that many people think that it was basis for the Creedance Clearwater's line "I ain't no senator's son"?
No, I didn't.
Again, it is called tact. This isn't a political forum. This is a forum on Bali and a small one at that. If you have a small apartment with too many people you begin to severely dislike the guy who keeps farting. He has a right to fart and all but it doesn't make it right.
Hell, Roy was never this obnoxious at his worst and we disagree on everything political.
But I am game to play by the same rules. Any thread that can be tied to an obnoxious deed of any political party of any country can now be posted on a bali forum. Especially if it is taken out of contest or contested in anyway. Is that what we want? I am happy to go with the forum on this.
Or we can ask that others show the same civility and politeness that they receive but do not give.
Cheers from cold Iowa, 19 days till we caucus!
tintin
Jim Thorpe,
One of the several examples of corruption that Kadek brought up was the bribing of some school officials of a leading school by parents of undeserving students to get them admitted anyway. I brought up the "famous" example of GWB, in order to reminder that this particular type of "bribing," also happens in western countries, except for the fact that there it is called a "gift."
Maybe you should re-read my post. I had written:
[quote] …some of you will object to my picking on the President, because it has nothing to do with Bali. In this case, it does: it is an flagrant example that [i]corupsi[/i] is everywhere[/quote]
but you conveniently omitted the second sentence, which was
[quote][u]In this case, it does:[/u] it is an flagrant example that corupsi is everywhere[/quote]
thereby changing the WHOLE purpose and meaning of my post, and obviously giving you a reason to start your ranting.
Yes, Harvard is a private corporation, and probably so is the school Kadek was talking about. But private or not, government or not, it is still bribery.
Finally, my post had nothing to do with politics: I was not discussing politic I was discussing corruption, even if my example involved a political figure. You may call it "tactless," and lacking in "civility, so I apologize for having hurt your feeling (but I am sure I made some other people on this forum happy). Boy, Iowa must be a f*****g boring place… :roll:
Jim Thorpe
Tintin the more "famous" example is Al Gore, immortalized in song as the famous senator's son. Show me where there is any sort of proof that Bush got into harvard because of daddy and I will show you more proof and media regarding Gore.
I used to help old people in the senior citizens home. Some of them didn't realize that they didn't wipe their bottoms as well as they should and hence they stunk a bit. You are like them. You are an old shitty fool that keeps thinking that your shit doesn't stink.
So keep thinking that you aren't farting you old army deserter you and we will wink and agree since you don't know any better.
BTW, Iowa is a great place to be right now if you UNDERSTAND politics but I think old french fools have little to learn.
BTW again, you keep threatening to leave the forum....when are you following through with your threat? Please keep your word better than you did to the French army.
tintin
[quote]IMO cosying up to Balinese royalty and accepting hand-outs from them has more to do with corruption in Indonesia[/quote]
Would you care to elaborate?
tintin
Allan,
I cannot believe (or rather I know) why you don't see the similarity between the two "donations." In both cases there is a quid pro quo: you accept my kid...I give money to your institution. Call it what you want.
Jim Thorpe
HI SG,
And again, it is not about whether he was loutish or what. This is about tintin's lack of maturity, tact or whatever you want to call it. Don't you think that I can come up with something on Gore? Or Clinton?
It is about being polite on a forum....
What kind of car do you drive? How about I find out and on as many threads I can I post how your car is shit and you are an idiot to have bought it. You think your car isn't so bad and you did a lot of research and while it isn't the best car out there this is the best car that you can afford. Ok, you with me on this? Now I continue, even after being asked by other posters, even after the posts have been locked, I say screw you SG, I don't care if it annoys you, I don't give a shit about you! Your car is a piece of shit and you are too for buying it. Now you don't have to listen to me but I think you would find it annoying and wonder why in the hell am I doing this, and wonder why I am being such a jerk...Well I have been wondering this for quite some time with tintin, AS HAVE OTHERS! You didn't see a huge show of support when asking for him to stay. What was it 3? 4 people? All I have asked is that he show SOME tact when posting.
We all like to think of ourselves as this nice little group of bali expats and travellers and I have read how we should try and get together while in Bali, etc. But there Tintin thinks he is bigger, better than all of us and it is beneath him to actually try to be civil...You know what? Screw tintin and the horse he road in on.
Kadek
Re: RE: Indonesian Justice
Oh please stick with the accepted definitions of English words and not twist them for your own partisan purposes.
For something to be called a bribe it must be the cause of an illicit action by the other party.
It is also not bribery to pay your child to behave. It is an inducement.
According to the Online Oxford English Dictionary
inducement
• noun 1 a thing that persuades or leads someone to do something. 2 a bribe.
bribe
• verb dishonestly persuade (someone) to act in one’s favour by paying them or giving other inducement.
• noun an inducement offered in an attempt to bribe.
— DERIVATIVES bribery noun.
— ORIGIN originally in the sense rob, extort, later money extorted or demanded: from Old French briber, brimber ‘beg’.
So there you go. I know that we are discussing about the corruption and bribery relating to the abuse of power by those in government, official position and also from those in position of trust and guardian of the law.
My reference towards the bribery of children to get them to do something was an attempt to make light of this discussion. But anyway, shouldn’t the parents have enough charisma and respect from their children to not resort to bribery (inducement) to get their children to behave?
Rewarding children for best behaviour and achievements I think are positive encouragement well deserved and will only act to encourage them to do better, but bribing them is only encouraging/training them to extort more as they grow older???? On this I wouldn’t have any idea as I don’t have children.
Just as an aside, I found this article in Wikipedia very interesting and perhaps relevant to this discussion here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bribery
Hmm this thread is getting out of control. :shock:
tintin
OK Allen,
would you care to explain why
[quote]Full fee paying students in Australia can gain entrance with lower scores.[/quote]
is OK, and it is not OK when it happens in Indonesia? :?
Jim Thorpe
Yes, Kadek, I know you meant well and yes, I agree that you have made some EXCELLENT points. Most of us think it is a good discussion. But you MUST understand, Tintin feels that he needs to input George Bush into the thread. This over rides anything important that you have to say. I know, this is the type of behaviour we expect from a down's syndrome child or some one with limited maturity but I have heard that he is a full grown adult! Amazing isn't it?
Let's do this....Let's begin all our posts with " yes tintin, it is George Bush's fault" and then we can just get his crap out of the way....or maybe someone can just volunteer to quickly write a post to that effect in each thread. Shoot, I have now messed up in all these French posting and now I will have to go back and correct them. Do you think it is ok if I just make one post to cover them all?
Kadek
[b]Re: RE: Indonesian Justice[/b]
[quote=Allan]Kadek did you read that Wiki article? The opening words are "Bribery is a crime...".[/quote]
Yes I did read it - otherwise I wouldn't know that it is interesting right?? It was not meant to justify or confirm my points about bribing oh sorry inducing children to change their behaviour! But rather an interesting article about bribery that I thought I share here since we are discussing about corruption which in my mind involves bribery anyway.
[quote] An inducement is a payment that persuades someone to alter their behaviour. A bribe is indeed a superset of the same concept but the crucial difference is that a bribe must cause some illicit, illegal or dihonest action. [/quote]
Ah thank you for clarifying it - the dictionary didn't make the distinction. And since English is my third language - it is not a surprise that I get confused :cry:
SG
Jim, For whatever reasons Tintin offended you in the past, I don't know, but in this thread I think the example was appropriate in the breadth of the discussion..in stating that the leader of the world's only superpower was also suspect (and that link I posted seems to substantiate the claim, as far as it can be, from the man's own mouth, as does the logical line drawn by the author of the book I mentioned). That's the point here, and the only real point to that post..and I agree with it..people in glass houses etc
To be honest, I think throwing "Gore did it too" is the pointless part of the drift..its very partisan too and irrelevant.
So can well all accept the point was made and move on?
Kadek..myself I can draw a fairly clear line between positive encouragement of children to perform, using both the stick and carrot (having just done just that with my 13 year old in the past hour over a shocking school report)..its little diffrent from saying if you pass an exam in your job, you get a pay rise. As Allan says, bribery is clearly defined as a crime, its quite a different thing to a reward. It's the intent. In the case of the cop the intent was not to go any further if the guy paid him some money..and that is wrong, both legally and in terms of the responsibilities implied by the uniform he wears to those that employ him
Thorsten
[b]Re: RE: Indonesian Justice[/b]
[quote=Allan]The money to buy the skateboard was the inducement for you to do the work. In other words, by your definition, your father exploited you.[/quote]
It was a job Allan, you work and you get money for it - that's a job.
You want to buy something - you need money, you need money - you have to work for it!
tintin
Allen,
Now that the "storm" has subsided, I would like to elaborate on the term "private university." You claim that there is
[quote] …nothing illicit about admitting someone because their parents are alumni or because they make million dollar donations[/quote]
but in practice, it reeks to the high Heaven, because universities, such as Harvard, are indeed "private," but only in name. Harvard is a business, and as a business it must be competitive with other universities and colleges. Therefore, it would be a total failure if it were not accredited by the Government. As soon as it is accredited, it falls under many Government rules and regulations, in order to be eligible, among other things, to received millions upon millions of $$ of tax payer money for scholarships and research contracts. So, it has lost much of its "privacy" in the process.
During the admission process, not only are the grades of the prospective student taken into account, but his or her extra-curricular activities, social background, etc. The letters of recommendations from community leaders, ex-professors, etc, are also important, and of course the fact that a prospective student is an alumnus' child. There was, and there still is, a substantial majority of Americans who are against "affirmative action programs" in the admission process, which favors minority students. But the same people do not bat an eye lash for the quota favoring alumni's children (a quota of 10 -13% of the yearly admissions is the rule).
So going back to Kadek's point, as far as I am concerned, .the money given under the table by a parent to an Indonesian school (called by the self-righteous people a "bribe"), and that given by a big donor to a "private" institution, is exactly the same,
Thorsten
OK - I give up Allan - you win ! 8)
tintin
Allen,
[quote]Or maybe you should stick to nuclear physics. Philosophy is obviously not your strong suit[/quote]
I would point out that, first, as a physicist I use logic, a Cartesian mind, in order to solve the problems thrown at me, not philosophy, and second, as old Will Shakespeare would say:
[i]"A rose, by any other name, would smell as sweet"[/i]
except that in this case we are not talking about a rose and it stinks.
That's OK Allen, like Thorsten said, you win! :roll:
PS. You still haven't elaborated on your sly previous remark
[quote]IMO cosying up to Balinese royalty and accepting hand-outs from them has more to do with corruption in Indonesia[/quote]
tintin
I can hardly wait to hear the punch line. Don't save it to long, it might rot in your pocket.
In the meantime, I have to do some chores for which I am not compensated.
