JAMIE
Allen .. I never knew you were so edgy . Bert hid you in the back of the class as a mod . I love the new you ! And those guys are right . Sorry!
Thorsten
Gentleman,
this hair splitting attitude about terminations is rather boring and also not very constructive.
I think the comparison with Bali and Harvard is appropriate too – illegal or not, call it bribery or something else, the result is the same.
The ongoing policeman has to bribe somebody to get in this job, the student in Bali who lacks competence or intellect but not money gets into the higher school by backdoor – the son/daughter of a wealthy family can attend Harward only because the influence of the parents.
A degree on Harward is highly regarded all over the world, it will open doors and while the very eager and competent student of University XY will end behind a counter of a village bank in Iowa handling loans for a new tractor, the dumb slacker from Harward will go straight into a nice office in Manhattan, London, Frankfurt.
The result will be the same, in the end you have less competent people in higher positions, which they actually not deserve, the guy in Iowa will make a mistake with a loan and get fired, the Harward guy is wrong with every analysis at Merrill Lynch and to get rid of him, they will put him on a political carrier.
Corruption is theft, when you can buy a carrier with money then it’s theft at the society.
Best regards
Thorsten
PS: In respect to Kadek’s post about rewarding/ bribing children with money for all and everything – in my point of view she’s damn right and I can see this all the time here in Germany.
Kids are often educated to do nothing without money anymore, bring the garbage out, mow the lawn, every single, normal task and even good school grades are rewarded, by this they learn, don’t do anything without money and that a favour must be rewarded.
Do me a little favour and I will reward you – isn’t this the first step into corruption?
I was educated in another style, my parents thought – for whatever you want to have – to value this – you must earn it, you have to work for this.
I was 12 years old when I wanted to have a skateboard, my father said, ok – you want it, you work for it.
The price for the thingy was 36 Marks that time (about 18€ now) – I worked 36 hours in my parents company after school, then I bought the skateboard.
It was the same for the first motorbike, driver license, car (of course not for this price) and when I made a degree some years later (had already moved out at home for some years) my father came with a present to me, which was a big surprise since I never expected this, he gave me a package and there was a golden Cartier watch inside.
Jimbo
And those guys are wrong...Sorry :-)
mileage
I've been making these donations to the police mans ball for years! ha ha
Jimbo
My brother in law tried to join the police and failed because he could not raise the 60 million it needed to pay to join.
My sister in law recently paid a similar amount for her daughter to join the police in Irian Jaya. Corruption is endemic throughout Indonesia and it is on a par with Nigeria for being the most corrupt country in the world.
These amounts are paid because the money can be "recovered" quickly. None of this is to say they do not do a good job but honourable.....not in my book. In mitigation the salaries are poor and it takes two to tango so those that commit illegal acts can always go to court.
Roy
[quote]I have absolutely no reasons to complain about the balinese (sic) police.[/quote]
Exactly my sentiments. In my encounters with both Polda and Intel, I have found them to be professional and courteous. One thing is for certain, you will never see them throwing a cripple off a wheel chair, as was aired on CNN this past week in the US.
In the early evening, Eri and I often watch Indonesian TV news. Most always there is raw unedited footage of the police in Java, Bali, and other parts of Indonesia either making an arrest, or trying to quell the anger of a crowd...whatever. I am always amazed by the constraint and patience of the police that is consistently evidenced in these news stories.
All too often, in my humble opinion, the stories of bribes and corruption overtake the stories of the men and women who serve here in a most honorable and respectable manner.
Roy
That’s a sad story Jimbo. As a flip side to it, I can tell you that a cousin of my wife, a recent graduate of Gadjah Mada university, was just recruited by the police, and with a “sign on” bonus...totally opposite of your brother in law’s situation. Is your brother in law in Bali, or in Sulawesi? It’s a rhetorical question, as the likely answer is Sulawesi.
What can I say? I’m not going to call you a story teller, but the yarn you present is not something I hear of here in Bali. I offer that insight only on the fact that a many of my wife’s extended family are involved with the government, in one capacity or another, and none of them paid for their jobs. As for corruption in the rest of Indonesia, I have no first hand knowledge, so I gladly pass the baton of expertise on that, to you.
Please keep in mind that non TNI (military) police authority is under provincial authority, and as such, from province to province within Indonesia, disparity in many aspects is not all that surprising. Let’s try to not let what goes on in other parts of Indonesia unjustly reflect on the realities of what goes on in Bali. Is that fair enough?
Jimbo
Roy
I am not attacking Bali but throughout Indonesia what I have said is true. Whilst I will always defer to your greater knowledge of Bali I have much ore experience of the larger Indonesia than you and can assure you its not just about Sulewesi.
I believe your love for Bali can blind you or at least give you rose tinted glasses when it comes to discussing downsides of Bali but let us agree to disagree.
Roy
I think if you re-read my prior post Jimbo, I made it very clear that I understand that your story has nothing to do with Bali...which was my whole point. :roll:
Since you have very little or no first hand experience of living on Bali, I find it odd that you can say that I see her through rose tinted glasses, unless of course I have been wearing them 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for going on for nine years! :P
Jimbo
Roy
I think your statement on rose tinted glasses is true. Corruption is just as evident on Bali as anywhere else. If you do not believe it thats up to you. I think your close involvement with your Balinese family and banjar shields you from it but many who visit bali have first hand experience.
I have been to Bali on many occasions (14 I Believe) and although as I have stated many times I do not live there I have some experience as do others. Please do not make your previous errors in thinking only you can have an opinion on Bali. If you do few of us will be able to speak.
Bali is not an island of truth in a sea of corruption no matter how much you think so. Having said that for me it is better than most places to live.
This is my last word on the subject.
Roy
[quote]“Corruption is just as evident on Bali as anywhere else. If you do not believe it thats up to you. I think your close involvement with your Balinese family and banjar shields you from it but many who visit bali (sic) have first hand experience.”[/quote]
Yup, that is something that tintin has also said. Hey! It’s your and his opinion, but regardless, the fact remains, neither your or tintin’s opinion come from years of living full time on Bali.
I’m not saying that Bali is pure, and free of corruption, and I’ve never made such a comment. But I surely don’t believe for a New York second that corruption here in Bali is “like everywhere else in Indonesia” nor do I think it’s anywhere like what one can read on several web sites devoted to this singular topic. You know what I mean...that “mad hatter’s” web sites.
If you think the closeness with my family and village banjar shields me from reality here, you are completely wrong. Am I the “bule dari Bunutan bubble boy?” Give me a break! It is precisely that experience which accounts for my unique knowledge and understanding of Bali...something neither of you have. And that, is just simple fact. What you should consider is that I’ve been exposed to every facet of Balinese life...the good, the bad, and the ugly.
I am not about to say “ma’af” for the reality of my life these past nine years, nor am I going to further apologize for speaking up when I read things here that are totally inconsistent with my own experience. You can count on my input quite a lot when I read “urban legends” here!
You can “speak” all you want. So can I. My words come from experience and the reality of life as I have lived it in Bali. Does that mean my words are more accurate or truthful? I don’t know. Let’s leave that determination to the readers.
Is that fair enough for you? I sure hope so, as that is about as generous as I am likely to get!
Jimbo
[quote]Is that fair enough for you? I sure hope so, as that is about as generous as I am likely to get![/quote]
Roy
Coming from you thats as much as I can hope for :P
mimpimanis
Paying to join the police does happen in Bali. I have several police freinds who paid and tell me it is the norm. As it is also in Lombok.
froggy
Well, who knows how that guy in the wheelchair was acting before she dummped him, the police and jail gaurds put up with much more crap than any balanise police would put up with! I can guarantee you if you were arrested in Bali and acted like a total ass ,that the local police would be more than willing to get you in check and in a hurry! Your rights in in a jail cell are determined by by the "BIG STCK" rule. follow the rules and you wont get the big stick of justice..... Heck, that dude prob. deserved to be dumped, who know what the hell he was doing to provoke the guard in dumping him, Surprised he wasnt kicked afew times..... guards are treated like crap here, and when they snap, evryone thinks badly of them, give me a break, everyone has their limits.... My grandfather was a sherrif in a small town back in the day's,,, he carried a slapjack and brass knuckles, only a few ever tested him and you can imagine the results after that. Needless to say his reputation was well known and very few ever were stupid enough to challenge him. As police and teachers you have to have respect either earned or by force, otherwise you mind as well get another job.
Roy
All I can say is to reiterate that no member of the police that I know has had to pay for their job. I understand that in some departments, rookies are required to pay a fee which is described as needed to cover the cost of uniforms and room and board while undergoing training, but not the job itself. This fee is nowhere near 60 million.
It would also be reasonable to assume that there are differences in the departments, Polda and Intel, as well as within the various regencies.
My disagreement with Jimbo is that he puts the level of corruption in Indonesia on the same level as in Nigeria, “the worst corruption in the world” as he put it, and furthermore states that Bali is just as corrupt as the rest of Indonesia. That would mean that the level of corruption found in Bali is on par with that of Nigeria, “the worst corruption in the world” which in my humble opinion is grossly inaccurate.
Furthermore, to make broad brushed statements about the levels and extent of corruption in Bali without hard evidence to support such claims is in my opinion reckless and unnecessarily damaging to Bali and its people. As I’ve stated, there are enough web sites slinging lies and innuendo about Bali written by one guy in Portugal. IMHO, we don’t need to do that here as well.
maxpower
Are the Bali Police different to the Indonesian Police, Roy?
Jimbo
[quote]All I can say is to reiterate that no member of the police that I know has had to pay for their job. I understand that in some departments, rookies are required to pay a fee which is described as needed to cover the cost of uniforms and room and board while undergoing training, but not the job itself. This fee is nowhere near 60 million. [/quote]
Roy
You do not know what is going on apart from your parochial world.and on this you make all your assumptions. You make broad brush statements on the fee,s but have no hard evidence to back it up. I never stated the 60 million was the fee in Bali because I suppose it changes all over Indonesia. It is a fact that there is a payment made and it is not just for the reasons you stated. Open your eyes or take off you spectacles. Bali is beautiful but not all of it.
As for corruption, do a google search and you will find the corruption tables for your hard facts.
Bert Vierstra
Paying to get a job, is common practice, also in Bali. If it is for the police, to work on a cruise ship, or even to work as a hotel clerk or massage girl. And there are (Balinese) people, who supply loans for these kind of things, at criminal interest rates. (and they see it as a social thing!)
Corruption however, has a large rumor factor too. The term is used often to invent scapegoats, make things understandable, and is lied about otherwise.
Especially foreigners, scared because of all the messages in the media, use the term easily as a cause of "things" happening, in case they don't understand... Easy....
I personally haven't seen any large scale corruption going on, but I have a limited view of course... I do know of grease money, and greedy people.
I think I know more cases of foreigners ripping each other off, than actual corruption cases ;)
Roy
[quote]“I never stated the 60 million was the fee in Bali because I suppose it changes all over Indonesia.”[/quote]
I know you didn’t state that Jimbo. What you did state was,
[quote]“My brother in law tried to join the police and failed because he could not raise the 60 million it needed to pay to join.”[/quote]
While most of us veterans to this forum know that your family is from Sulawesi, to the casual reader, your statement could just as easily been meant to apply to Bali, this being a Bali forum. I don’t think you want readers here to be led to believe that a police job in Bali costs 60 million, anymore than I do.
You also stated,
[quote]“You do not know what is going on apart from your parochial world.and on this you make all your assumptions.”[/quote]
You’re absolutely right Jimbo, and my “parochial world” is Bali, specifically the Ubud area. However, I make no assumptions about what I know from my long experience of living in my “parochial world.” Look at it this way Jimbo...I would never presume to tell you about Saudi Arabia, or more currently Kazakhstan, because you live there. You might cut me a little slack Jimbo, and presume that the same is logical in so far as me in Bali.
No amount of Googling or Yahooing will substantiate anything near your statement that corruption in Bali is on par with Nigeria. If you honestly believed that, you would never be considering your land deal around Lovina.
Jimbo
[quote]So, back to my original question. Would I enjoy such a photo? You bet I would and I have little doubt that in time, it will be taken.[/quote]
Nothing is impossible.
