Markit
Ok, lets look at this rationally - you go on holiday to have a good time, right?
Driving a motorbike is fun.
Those guys in the vid were breaking some law (couldn't get quite which one) so the cop, bent or not, was doing his job.
The guys on bikes got told what to do and the cop got paid for doing a shitty job (well and with a friendly attitude - if you don't agree don't ever get stopped in America).
Who was hurt? Don't give the b.s. corruption in Asia argument, cause it aint just there friend, and it aint keeping the economy down - not at that level, at least.
The guys rode off and minded what they were doing for the rest of their stay and probably had a damn good time and a story to tell when they got home - good for em.
Life is for having a good time, maybe there are some risks and some people have it all end in tears, for most of us it don't. - shit happens, don't take it so seriously.
Markit
[b]Hat off![/b] This is the most sensible contribution to this (or any) forum that I've read in a long long long time.
Please feel free to give me/us the benefit of your excellent observations and experience any time!
Thank you and I feel chastised - deservedly. :oops:
Jim Thorpe
Tintin,
I am curious...
Why does everything in your world revolve around your George Bush hatred? If there is a 3 legged dog that is killed in Russia, it reminds you of Bush and is probably Bush's fault that he had three legs and was killed.
Your obsession caused the last row on the forum and now here you are starting another one.
You even admit it has nothing to do with Bali. I suggest it has nothing to do with Kadek either, it just makes you feel better. You are like a person on heroin that just can't stop themselves and it is a bit sad.
froggy
Jim, the three legged dog you are reffering to wasnt killed by Bush, but rather became 3 legged after bush's limo convoy ran him over on his last visit to moscow. You info must be coming from the same dept. that investigates W.M.D's .....
froggy
Allen, you have a good point on the insurance aspect, there are illegals driving all over this country with no insurance, millions of them, not just a few tourist but millions,, but when I rented my scooter I had insurance coverage through the rental shop (or did I?). I was told I did. But a scooter does alot less damage than a 1 ton truck pulling a load of lawnmowers full of mexicans drinking cheap beer and smoking weed!!! I would trade a few drunkin tourist with surfboards for millions of mexicans anydays. Anyone else want to cry about the horrible scooter drunkin tourist on Bali anymore,,, get real.... they have been there since the begining of tourism on the island and there going to be there from now on...even if the fines get real... If anything the law needs to get onto the rental shops , making sure they have insurance, I could care less if you have a "local " license...hit me and I better be paid for my damages....
Adam
Froggy, you of all people are questioning another persons grammar and spelling! Ha! LMAORAOTF! :lol: :lol: :lol:. As the manager of a major Research facility I can assure you my grasp of English is quite acceptable.
I do apolologize, there is some Aussie slang in my post which you might not have understood, namely "stiff bikkies" is a polite way of saying "stiff shit" and to "hoon" refers to behaving stupidly in or on a vehicle of some kind, something I'm sure you are familiar with. Surely you know what anarchy is?...
The rest is pretty self explanatory I think, apart from a few quick typing errors, so maybe I should dumb it down into redneck so you can understand it clearer.
I don't have a problem if people want to get pissed and drive/ride around like idiots or jump on the back of a bike without the neccesary skills whether licenced or unlicenced. But I don't want to be affected by it either so you can go as mad as you want in a farm paddock or similar but STAY OFF THE STREETS! I don't expose you to harm from my stupidity so why should I have put up with yours! Being on holidays is not an excuse, it isn't that hard to behave sensibly to avoid killing or injuring another person, drunk or sober. There really is no excuse for some of the behaviour that can be witnessed by bike riding tourists in Bali and you're wasting your time and words if you think it's acceptable.
Putting somebody elses safety at risk through blatant disregard and stupidity is inarguable in any context and it certainly doesn't add to the ambience one little bit in Bali, regardless of what you believe Froggy.
Markit
Ok, I'm not trying to be an apologist for all forms of corruption but my meaning was more meant to express my belief that corruption is endemic and part of the human experience that we all have to deal with all the time.
Not to get too philosophical but to use the example of the "corrupt" policeman; In our world police earn enough (more or less) to have a relatively nice life and be able to feed and educate their children to an acceptable level. This comes from taxation - people in the developing world, as a rule, don't earn enough to pay taxes - how do you pay for policing if there is no tax base? Teachers? Doctors? Bureaucrats? To my mind it's a case of "carts and horses". Once a society has reached a level of affluence where they can afford to pay taxes corruption then becomes less, automatically - I expect that if you were to ask the policeman in the film what he thought of corruption he would hate it too - but feeding his kids is more important, as it is to us all.
SG
Jim, lets agree to disagree, suffice for me to say that corruption seems to exist at the highest levels in both parties. I wasn't trying to be partisan on this, but that book I mentioned, written by a Republican of some note, fairly well establishes the way that publicly funded pressure was bought to bear to open the door to Harvard for Bush, and regardless of the party, that to me is fairly well defined as corruption. I've not read about the Gore case, so I can't comment on whether he was a suitable applicant or not.
My point is that it is often hypocritical for Western governments to self righteously point the finger at Indonesia when the odour of corruption exists a little closer to home.
SG
The idea that police in Bali don't earn a good wage is one often thrown around but it's simply, in Indonesian terms, not true. If it was such a shitty job, why pay Rp60m to get in the Academy. Starting salary is, I'm told about Rp1.200.000 per month plus a raft of benefits that others don't get.
Would the policeman hate it..I don't know. I sat with a bunch of my Indonesian friends and discussed this very topic. The advice I was given was that it simply so endemic, no one really sees it as unusual. Corruption from the top to the bottom is accepted.
The lack of collected taxes in Indonesia is nothing to do with that tax base being missing but is simply an endemic indicator of the corruption itself. The head tax guy in Jakarta doesn't have a tax number, as came out last week, and only 3% of people in Bali are registered. The tax system is structured so that people on low end incomes have no tax liability (until about RP1.400.000 a month), but the endemic corruption means that no-one pays tax, including those who can afford to.
However the depth of corruption means that those people who can least afford to are paying taxes in the form of graft.
No, the core issue is the corruption itself and making excuses for it simply accentuates the problem. I can't accept your argument I'm afraid.
SG
And just to clarify..corruption does not need to be "government" to be defined as corruption.
But I have no desire to get into an American political discussion here so lets move on.
Thorsten
[b]Re: RE: Indonesian Justice[/b]
[quote=Markit]Once a society has reached a level of affluence where they can afford to pay taxes corruption then becomes less, automatically - I expect that if you were to ask the policeman in the film what he thought of corruption he would hate it too - but feeding his kids is more important, as it is to us all.[/quote]
[b]Do you seriously think this ?[/b] :shock:
We have a saying here: [i]The fish stinks first from head[/i]
The cop has to bribe one first to become a cop, to get into a job you have to pay first – like I said before money beats competence!
This system you will find on every level of the society, how can you expect honesty from a simple cop, when this guy knows that everybody above him is corrupt too, up to the Government, judges, whoever, he is simply part of the system and may think it’s not so bad to make some money extra, when everybody else will do the same.
What to expect from the people, when over decades the property of the nation was treated like a family business?
Why is Indonesia a poor country with all its resources – they are sold out in very long term contracts to foreign companies, Indonesia is even importing oil.
Corruption is selfishness, it is not the need which will get somebody corrupt, it’s simply the opportunity and don’t think compassion for others would ever stop corruption – the victims of the tsunami in Aceh have seen only a few bucks of hundreds of millions U$, Euro, Yen.
SBY wrote on his banner to fight corruption, but how can you be ever successful when all around are corrupt too?
Why the hell should anybody pay taxes in this country, in the knowledge nobody pays them?
How can you change the mind and the behaviour of a whole nation – who should start first to become non-corrupt and why?
When leadership on every level of the society is founded on corruption and not on competence, who do you think should bring this nation forward?
Thorsten
Hi Allan,
your taxi driver was right, you got away very, very cheap!
My first contact with Bali police was in Seminyak, I just met two Jakarta expats with their Jakarta girlfriends in a bar and we wanted to go to another place when stopped by police.
I had no clue what’s going on and this Belgium guy even paid the bribe for me, afterwards one of the couples had a loud argument and I asked the other guys where the problem was.
His friend almost freaked out when his Indonesian girlfriend started to argue with the police and then he told me why.
He said in Jakarta it’s a very common practise by police to stop cars with Bule/ Indonesian couples, the girls are generally blamed for prostitution, very bad if you cannot prove marriage with her, then she will get arrested.
He told me that sometimes the girls are arrested for 6 months and during this time you pay at least (some years ago already) 100 U$ per month, to get her food, tampons, shampoo, whatever into jail and that nobody will touch her.
froggy
Wow, I have never heard stories like those before! I was just familiar with the local smiley bali police and there little bribes, I can see your displeasures with the law if they act like that, thugs with a badge. I am familiar with "fees" paid by buisness owners, and the local police try to keep out other "law enforcement" out of their areas, I actually watched that, really pissed me off, several of us bule were going to run them off ourselves but were told it would be taken care of and it would cause more trouble, man did I want to kick that guys ass. Here you could of kicked his ass and deal with the fines and it would be over, there I would of faced alot more retribution and prob. had people after me, having to look over my shoulder all the time, Indonesion men appear to hold grudges, too bad. I suppose the Bali police are not as bad as jakarta overall?
FreoGirl
I would say that the local population is targeted just as much as tourists. Damsiah has a funny story where he was pulled over for a license check and he had forgotten his motorbike license. Negotiation commenced and Damsiah professed to having no money for a 'fine'. The cop wanted Rp50,000 and took Damsiah's car license are a 'surety' that Damsiah would come to his home and give him the money in exchange for his license.
Damsiah timed things - he went to the cops home when he knew the wife would be about. He put Rp1,000 (yes tha't one thousand only) in a sealed envelope covered in paper so you couldn't see the contents. The cop slipped the unopened envelope away quickly not wanting his wife to see (and demand her share!) got his license, shook hands and was off.
Imagine that cops surprise when he opened the envelope. Serves the greedy bugger right. Rp1,000 wouldn't even buy him a ciggie at the warung :lol: :lol: :lol:
SG
its hearsay but his old professor says that Bush himself admitted as much
http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature ... index.html
froggy
At Harvard they just teach you how to bribe in a more professional manner! Nothing like an M.B.A in How to f--k your fellow man and use the law to get away with it.
Kadek
My first impression after reading this thread is that it seems there are some of you who think that because you are in Bali and are visiting as tourists, that you have valid reasons to ride/drive scooter/car without a license, ride/drive drunk or half drunk, have your kids on the scooter without helmets, riding without proper experience or competence etc. These are all justified in one way or another!!
In the past there were some high opinions expressed whereby people are concerned about the local mums and dads who have their kids on the motorbike without helmets, or the bikes are fully loaded with stuff to the brim, riding/driving without proper knowledge of the road rules and or competence in riding/driving motorized vehicles in the first place.
It seems this is the“do what I told you and don’t do what I do” type of scenario.
So my questions are?
1. Why should it be okay (acceptable) for tourists to behave less then perfect when they have come from countries that have high standards of driving competency requirements and where the law and road rules are enforced? Why dumb yourself down when you are holidaying overseas and put yours and other people’s life at risk??
Why is it not justifiable for the local people to ride/drive in what considered to be dangerous behaviour on the road
– When they haven’t known better and the supposedly educated tourists are not showing them the proper ways either?
– When out of necessity mums and dads put their kids’ live at risk just so that they can as a family go and have an outing together? (not all people can afford a car, nor the taxi fare and public transport are not always reliable!)
So should the ordinary people put their lives on hold until the government put their act together? And due to widespread lack of skills, training, competence, funding etc and of course corruption – anything seems to take ages to happen in the first place!
Why should it be acceptable for tourists who only have to deal with the sub-standards condition for a short time able to validate their less then perfect behaviour and the locals are vilified for trying to make things happen for themselves in a less than perfect condition?
This is such instance where the saying “When you go to Rome, do as the Romans do!” doesn’t apply!
Sorry, this reply might be a bit out of context at this stage of the discussion.
tintin
Kudos to Kadek. Great points, Kadek, and well said. That's what I'd call "reality checks."
[quote]A simple example that many of you might not aware of - Students enrolment in public middle and high schools in Bali are based on merits – the more academically reputable the school, the higher the score the students must get on their final year’s exam to enter that school. So what if your kids did poorly in the exam and have missed out? There is a way of course, (you probably wouldn’t get to bribe the teacher to change their marks after the event) but the desired school maybe will accept some cash in hand for limited number of students. I know this as there were some in my old school, who gained entrance via the “back door”. [/quote]
On this point, I'd like to reassure you, Kadek, that this is by no mean exclusive to Indonesia. Here, in academia in the US of A, the same thing happens. Universities have a certain percentage of their admissions (about 10% -15%) reserved for their alumni's children. Why? Because alumni contribute big money in support of their Alma Maters. So, if your father or mother is an alumnus of some college or university, and is rather generous in supporting his or her Alma Mater, even though their progeny may be a dunce, he or she will be admitted.
A most flagrant example is that of our "Commander in Chief," G.W. Bush Jr.. His father, George Bush Sr. is an alumnus from Yale U. His son was admitted at Yale, mostly on the "coattail" of his father. Bush Jr. graduated from Yale with a "C" average. From my own teaching experience in universities, I can tell you that a "C" is given for mediocre work (but not failing work). It means, "OK you showed up, you warmed the benches for a semester, here is your grade, and now go away."
In order to do graduate work in any university in the US, a minimum of a cumulative "B" average for his or her undergraduate work is required . In addition, in prestigious institutions, such as Harvard U., much more is considered in the academic and extra curricular activities background of the applicant. Practically, anyone with just a "B" average will not be admitted, unless very special circumstances exist.
Our "dear" President showed up some time ago at the prestigious Harvard Business School, with his "C" average from Yale U., with the idea of getting his MBA (Master of Business Administration). Against all odds, he was admitted. Why? I'll let you guess why, but I will venture that there must have been a very generous donation to the Harvard Foundation by Poppy, which greased the plank… :roll:
I know, I know, some of you will object to my picking on the President, because it has nothing to do with Bali. In this case, it does: it is an flagrant example that [i]corupsi[/i] is everywhere (and I hope I made Kadek feel better). :)
Kadek
My take on the corruption thing.
Corruption in Indonesia, I agree is endemic. But where to start something new and uncorrupted! As some forum members have stated, where does corruption start and where does it ends? Perhaps no one knows this for certain?
In my humble opinion, corruption occurs because there are opportunities without bad consequence! So if you believe so strongly about stopping corruption – STOP presenting opportunities to the would be corruptors!!
So after saying the high moral stuff, what is the reality on the grounds? Are the tourists – generally perceived to be rich, the only group of people exploited by the corrupt system in Indonesia?
Are tourists being targeted just because they are tourists?
From my point of view, corruption in Indonesia doesn’t seem to have any boundaries and it doesn’t discriminate against people– it doesn’t matter if you are rich or poor, a farmer or a businessman – the corrupt system is THE system and all people must deal with it everyday of their lives to make things happen!!!
It is not just the occasional bribes for forgetting to bring your driving license or not wearing a helmet. It is almost omnipotent where ever you go and whatever you are trying to do – especially if you want things done expediently!! If it involves some kind of paper works – you can be pretty sure to expect some kind of cash in hand service as an added cost to actual fee. From the point of view of the applicants, it is money well spent to get things done, and from the point of view of the processing officer it is a fee for service rendered (maybe like a consultant’s fee in the West!). It is so common that for many people – these cash in hands are no longer referred to as bribes (my aunt told me it was once called “Lipstick Money”) – they are simply a fee to get things done and or to get to places or to avoid being punish or fine for breaking the law.
A simple example that many of you might not aware of - Students enrolment in public middle and high schools in Bali are based on merits – the more academically reputable the school, the higher the score the students must get on their final year’s exam to enter that school. So what if your kids did poorly in the exam and have missed out? There is a way of course, (you probably wouldn’t get to bribe the teacher to change their marks after the event) but the desired school maybe will accept some cash in hand for limited number of students. I know this as there were some in my old school, who gained entrance via the “back door”.
More over, if you are poor, you are exploited multiple times – you get low wages for hard physical labour, you must pay more bribes because you rely more on other people to do “official” business for you (service fee for Pak Wayan, service fee for Ibu Komang, Service fee for this and that) and by the end you end up with nothing. For example a poor farmer has a small piece of land and he wants to sell this land to pay for his son’s way to be a police officer. The farmer doesn’t know how to do this, so he pay a third person who will then connect the farmer with another person who can scout for buyers for the land, this person in turns must pay bribes to get all the paper works done etc. after all that, the farmer must pay someone with connection to the police academy and then also pay the “entrance fee” for his son.
I am not saying that all instances are like this, but they are common enough that it is public secret! and of course it is not limited to only the police.
The examples to mention would be too many to cover, but I guess you get the idea – I hope??
Hmm speaking of corruption, hands up those who have ever bribed children to do things (be it to clean up after themselves, to study, to go out play outdoor, etc) in returns for treats, pocket money etc (or being bribed yourselves when you were young)???
So who is teaching who in the bribe (corruption department)?? Maybe it is just part of life???
froggy
Tin's right, almost every example Kadek states, there is an example here too, its just not considerd a "bribe' when thay call it a fee!!! try selling your house here,or your land, realestate fees, lawyer fees, closing cost, and other misc. fee's add up to a hefty price, try to the tune of 20% !!! They have bribery because there are no taxes plain and simple, we are fee'd to death here and are tied down in "red tape" I would gladely negotiate a "bribe' than have to pay a mandatory fee anyday... at least i get to participate in the proceess, and may come out with a good deal (or free) if I have good negotiating skills, here you have no choice, your just screwed, period!! Iv'e heard enogh about bribery in indonesia, plz, its a system that is there to stay for awhile , so deal with it and be thankfull they dont take you house and sell it at auction if your past due on your taxes... Good grief, :(
