Thorsten
Philip,I never said anywhere, that this is [i]confined to Indonesia[/i]![b]What[/b] money is available where, exactly? It seems to me that the bulk of orphanages throughout Indonesia are set up by foreigners and more or less run by them. If some of them have affiliations with "Christian" groups, so be it. At least they're doing something. Ain't nothing perfect in this world.[/quote]Obviously somebody is supplying money for orphanages, conclusion - no orphans, no orphanage, no money!Let's say an orphanage would send all those kids back to their families, which are actually not orphans and would try to support, this kids at home, what this would mean to the orphanage - no donations anymore?!Or let me say it a bit clearer - [b]give me 100 orphans and a good photographer and I will make 1mio Euro a year with them in Germany![/b]What does it cost to host a child per year in Bali and what does a swimming pool with a springboard cost?That's what I mean, when I say the system is sick!Best regardsThorsten
FreoGirl
Does anybody know, what is the annual Government support (speak money) for an orphanage per child in RI? [/quote]In 2003 I discussed this with Pak Bahar who runs the Sabilal Muhtadin children's home in Aik Bukak, Lombok. He told me that the Government gives Rp 1,500 per day per child for their care (that's less than AUD 30 cents a day, USD 15 cents). I can't imagine it's gone up much since then.The children attend the school in the local village, and the fees alone take up more than half that money. So they rely on donations and financial assistance from locals (who are also terribly poor) and the odd bit of assistance from tourists and visitors to Lombok like myself. There are also a couple of businesses like Santai Beach Inn who regularly help out with money or food.Pak and Ibu also get a small stipend from the Government for their care of the children, which they live on. Pak also works as a teacher and puts his entire teaching wage toward extras such as medical supplies and clothing for the kids.Pak Bahar's father donated the land for the home and it was his wish that a home be built there for the children. This is not run or supported by a religious group and the only foreign involvement is from people interested in helping them out however they can.Pak Bahar and his wife do a wonderful job. Apart from feeding, clothing, educating and LOVING these children, they are setting up a system whereby not only can they be partially self-sufficient as far as food goes (with the garden and a fish pond) but the children themselves are learning valuable life skills by helping with the garden, the fish pond, chickens, even maintaining the buildings. Pak Bahar encourages them to experiment, consider advice from more experienced people, and take pride in whatever they do. This particular home has been lucky enough to come under the notice of several generous foreigners. Money has been raised or donated to improve the situation of the children there, new kitchen, bathrooms, and girls dormitory, and a playground. Also some are sponsoring a few of the kids once they finish school and who show apptitude through university.Thornsten, I think while your comments about returning kids to their parents and supporting the family is great in theory, it does not work in practice. Better that these children are being cared for than on the streets - which is a worse alternative and all too common in poor countries.Freo
balimudder
I don't have the e-mail address of the woman who told me that the children couldn't be adopted from the orphanage. But my wife (balinese) did call the woman who runs the adoptions from the hospital and she said the same thing.
balimudder
I am sure the children who are "put on hold" by their parents are certainly not up for adoption without permission from the parent(s). But in Bali there is a lot of family adoptions especially if there is not a boy in the family. According to my wife, if both of us die and there is not a boy in the family, the nearest boy relative inherits everything. So if that is the case, a lot of times one of the nephews is taken into the family to continue the inheritance.We adopted our youngest girl because the father died and the mother was pregnant with her second child. She gave up both the oldest girl (who we adopted) and her son to one of Komang's uncles. She figured she could remarry quicker if she didn't have any children around. I haven't checked but I would guess that most of the children in the orphanges are girls.
FreoGirl
I haven't checked but I would guess that most of the children in the orphanges are girls[/quote]At the children's home I mentioned above, back in 2003 there are 45 kids, ranging in age from around 5 to 16. 30 Boys and 15 girls.There are now 55 kids, the additionals being mostly boys.Ok, it's Lombok not Bali, but Muslim culture is just the same when it comes to preference toward boys, including inheritance rules etc.I don't think it makes any difference as to the sex, other than perhaps girl babies don't make it to an orphanage.
Roy
I guess, during my "sabbatical" I watched this sting the most. It had a hold on my curiosity if anyone who regularly posts here really understands that concept...adoption, among the Balinese, and by the Balinese.If one understands the Balinese concept of family, then one will appreciate that the Balinese family goes well beyond mom, dad, husband, wife, brothers and sisters, and in fact, incorporates all uncles, aunts, cousins, both first and second in line and even beyond that. It would be a rare event that within a traditional Balinese village, that any child, suddenly faced with a dead mom and dad, would be "adopted" in the sense westerners might think of. No, that would almost certainly not happen. Those kids would be taken in by other family members, and in fact, aside from adat records about this, within the village banjar, most likely there would be no other record about this event. I have seen this twice happen in eight years, but those events are only the ones I am aware of the details. A somewhat "western style" adoption however does occasionally happen within traditional Balinese villages. This happens most often when a family is faced with the reality that they have no male offspring, and likely never will. This, I have only seen once. Male offspring are essential for the Balinese to carry on ancestral responsibilities. While Balinese women, when married, follow the man into his compound....thus the intense marital rites of acceptance by the male's ancestors of the new bride...Balinese men are, and likely always will be, the center of the compound and the head male, is always most responsible for the ancestors.Ancestor worship, or "regard" is an essential part of Agama Hindu di Bali, and it comes from their animist roots. As an example of this, our brother in law, I Wayan Tagel, the architect, artist, and member of the DPR is a fifth child or second Wayan in his compound. He has two older brothers, so the likelihood of him ever being the head of his family compound is fairly slim to none. Last year, he was "adopted" by another family in our village, and as head of this family and compound. Rest assured, this process took several ceremonies, including another tooth filing ceremony for him....all important to introduce him into this "other family" and most importantly, to their ancestors. Obviously, that family had no males to take on this role. In this role, he is granted all title and ownership of all lands, or other assets of the family that adopted him. During the all important Balinese time of Galungan, the essential time for ancestors, his responsibilities now rest in his "adopted" compound.As I have learned, this sort of Balinese adoption (within adults) happens more often than one would think I have also learned that swapping boys for girls is not so uncommon either within close family units. The tighter the family unit the "easier" this can be. For the Balinese, taking in children into their family is not adoption at all. Rather, it is something they would do without question or hesitation. I have no doubts at all what would happen if Eri and I met our demise mutually, as far as our three boys are concerned. If that were to happen, neither Eri, or I would consider the logical and practical parenting of our boys as anything close to adoption. Citizenship, as we may think of from a western point of view, has never taken on less meaning for me than in my years in Bunutan, Bali. There are no "citizens" in my village. There is only family.
Jimbo
Welcome back Roy and with an excellent piece of writing to boot. Although you write specifically about your most knowledgeable area of Bali much of what you say is true throughout Indonesia.One of the great joys of my life was the extended family I inherited when I got married. This year there is a plan for us all to meet up from all over the world at my father in laws funeral. Some of them I have not seen for a long time including one or two reletives who adopted me when they were very small children.The west has a lot to learn about caring not just for children and orphans but also for those in the family who are as not as well off as others.
Roy
[i]"The west has a lot to learn about caring not just for children and orphans but also for those in the family who are as not as well off as others. "[/i]Amen to that Jimbo. I agree entirely, but also I was trying to avoid politicizing the issue. Many thanks for saying for me what was indeed in the back of my mind.By the way...very nice new car!
Sanurian
Hi [i]Amigo[/i] ([b]Roy[/b])I'm both surprised and glad that you're back here. [b]WELCOME BACK[/b] (is that loud enough for you?)I can't comment on your post regarding adoptions in Bali. Interesting points, presented in your inimitable style. Some assertions were made earlier on regarding "adoptions" (by westerners), such as 'you can't adopt a child from an orphanage', (which I don't believe is the case - difficult, but not impossible), and so forth. Someone asked what financial contribution the Indonesian government makes to orphanages. I've got a whole bunch of downloaded papers, research reports, etc, but can't quite find the answer (yet). Maybe you could shed some light on this. I'm really interested to know what the scenario is.And what's the going price for (good) rice up your way these days? :P
Roy
Hi Phil and thanks for the welcome. You ask me, "maybe you could shed some light on this. I'm really interested to know what the scenario is." Sorry, but I haven't the slightest clue. However, I do know someone well who could shed quite a bit of light on this, and that is Helen Flavel of The Helen Flavel Foundation. [url="http://www.helenflavelfoundation.org/"]http://www.helenflavelfoundation.org/[/url]Her organization works primarily in Bert's neck of the woods, but she is well aware of just about all NGO and volunteer work going on all over Bali. Helen is a remarkable woman who Eri and I have had the pleasure of her friendship for many years. I'm sure she would welcome any efforts you may be inclined to offer her organization, knowing how much this has been of interest to you for many years as well.Yes, the price of rice is on the rise. Eri just paid 135k for a 25 kilo bag for our workers, which comes to 5,400 Rp per kilo and that was just for normal quality. If I recall correctly, that is about double of what the price was just two years ago.
Tim
Good to see you back Roy.Regards,Tim
Ipanema
Sorry I have looked but can't find - what does NGO stand for. I imagine they are what we call Not for Profit Organisation. Can someone tell me.and Roy welcome back.
Sanurian
Hi Tina"[b]NGO[/b]" stands for "Non-Government(al) Organisation" (or something like that).There - that's one good deed for the day. :D
Sanurian
[b]Roy[/b]I'm already familiar with Helen Flavel's projects and admire them greatly. But this particular thread has opened up questions regarding westerners [b]adopting[/b] children, as opposed to [i]sponsoring[/i] them. There's a big difference there.As you know, I "sponsored" many children in the past for about ten years...off my own bat, so to speak. No NGO's, just me. And me trying to embarrass visitors into spreading some of their wealth to needy people (including the children). Things like:[i]"Pleased to meet you Mr & Mrs X. You love Bali, right? Your bill for the champagne here is one or two million rupiah. Ever thought of how you might give something back for the love you've received?"[/i]Silly stuff like that. Nevertheless, I [b]did[/b] manage to make a few people "cry", at times. They contributed, too. Flinging money around indiscriminately in Bali never was and never will be enough to solve poor people's problems. I learned that the hard way, a long time ago, and I never believed that what I was doing did create intra-village jealousies, etc. I even had close, educated Balinese to help/guide me but they screwed up. The bubble finally burst and for a while, I was really pissed-off. Until I realised the manner in which I was trying to do things wasn't working in one particular village. When I pulled the plug, I did it on everybody involved. Not something I'm proud of but it was necessary at the time, given the state of my mind.Of the sixteen kids I sponsored, fourteen finished senior high school. One "drop-out" got a job in Benoa working with boats. Another became a sort of amateur prostitute. The rest are happily married, with children of their own. One even married a foreigner in Spain.The only thing I ever asked of them during my [i]sponsorship years[/i] was that if they ever became "wealthy" in the future, to remember their origins. And do something similar for their own people, if they can.We still don't have clear information with respect to foreigners trying to [b]adopt[/b] Indonesian children. The best I've found is the material on the US Embassy site in Jakarta. 8)
froggy
Hi Roy, Welcome back, Jimbo.s comment (on how the west has alot to learn) is really sad,but true.. family values are getting to be nile,,,surely its due to family living so far apart? Growing up I barely knew my uncles,grandparents, cousins,, we usually met during the holidays....Frog
Thorsten
The only thing I ever asked of them during my sponsorship years was that if they ever became "wealthy" in the future, to remember their origins. And do something similar for their own people, if they can. [/quote]Great point Philip!Did this happen, what are your experiences?
balimudder
I had a similar problem to Phil when it comes to intra-village jealousy. I bought my wife a new motorbike and after she went back to her village with it she said that the jealous relatives put a "black magic" spell on her. For a long time afterward, she would borrow a friend's old beat up bike and go up there. But it didn't stop there. When we adopted the first girl and bought her some new clothes the relatives put another "black Magic" spell on her. That was enough for me. I told her if that was the case then just stop going back there. That lasted about 6 months. Then she told me she stopped believing in "black Magic" and didn't have any more problems. I am telling this because I understand what Phil is talking about when you just throw money around. People don't understand that you can't give the same to everyone. They think , Why give to them but not me? And in these villages the relationships can go back very far and distant but still consider themselves close relatives. In Komang's case, her grandfather had 3 wives and a bunch of kids with each wife so do the math. If I give some money for the education of one, I am expected to to support all the distant relative's kids.
Roy
Phil writes,"We still don't have clear information with respect to foreigners trying to adopt Indonesian children. The best I've found is the material on the US Embassy site in Jakarta." [/quote]As I wrote before Phil, I have no idea about that. We already have three boys so Eri and I have never considered adoption. I do know that if it ever became necessary for us to take in any of our neices or nephews into our home, it would be done without hesitation. But, if that would constitute legal adoption, or adoption "defacto" I have no clue. Froggy, since we haven't heard otherwise, we can safely assume that Robin, Zoe, Micah, Duke and good golly, Miss Molly all made it back OK and in reasonably good shape given all the flight hours? I can't imagine what that must have been like. Please pass on our best to Robin, and to the kids, from "the boys!"This "intra-village" jealousy topic is new to me, and I have personally never experienced it. Balimudder writes:"I bought my wife a new motorbike and after she went back to her village with it she said that the jealous relatives put a "black magic" spell on her."[/quote]What kind of relatives does your wife have? That's pretty outrageous to say the least. For us of course, it is very different in that we live in my wife's village, but I've never experienced, nor has Eri, any jealousy among her family with any of our good fortune, or charitable efforts. As for the topic of Balinese being charitable towards other Balinese, I have seen this many times. As Helen can confirm, as she sees this also, it was my wife who decided to sponsor a child through her foundation...not me, and Eri is not the only Balinese sponsoring children there. That being said, I should also point out that more often than not, I have found the Balinese to hold to the idea that "charity begins at home" in that their first priority would be to help out other family members.
balimudder
This jealousy of her relatives is pretty outrageous to me also and that is what I told her. One of our daughters, and I do consider them my daughters even though no formal papers have been done up, is a child from one of her first cousins so there is a fairly close relationship. But the older girl is from a very distant relationship so that is the one that causes the most problems. It's the old thing about why do you give to a stranger but not to your closer relatives. My wife has told me that if we send the older daughter to the university I would have to pay to send all of the relatives kids to the university. My intention was to give my 2 daughters a better life than they would have had and it seems to have blown up in our faces.
Sanurian
There is no question in my mind about generosity on the part of Balinese...at least those who have the means to be generous.As for [b]Pak Roy[/b] never having seen signs of intra-village jealousy in his own village, that doesn't particularly surprise me. Roy's village, (correct me if I'm wrong here, [i]Amigo[/i]), is a relatively affluent one. Not all of Bali's villages are in the same boat. Spend some time with very poor Balinese, (yes..they [b]do[/b] exist), and you will quickly see signs of petty jealousy brewing (not always, but often).I'll say this again. Despite the best intentions of foreigners to make some selected children's lives better by paying for their school fees, uniforms, new clothes, shoes, books, pens and pencils, transport, health care and all the rest, it sometimes backfires. Even the children themselves come to feel "different" from their peers and in bad-case scenarios, ostracized. It's a sad thing to see. (I know because I've made the same mistakes myself, much to my own horror, but promised myself "never again".)My "advice" to anybody who is thinking of doing something like this is [b]don't[/b], no matter how much your heart bleeds. A better way would be to think of some "assistance" that benefits the entire village, for example, buy a new water pump or fix the old one. Everybody benefits.One other point concerning notions of "helping people". Many people in many countries, regardless of how "poor" they may be in our eyes, still possess human pride/dignity and are often loathe to accept "charity". In my humble opinion, it is far better to empower people...to help them help themselves, rather than make them feel they're just passive receivers of hand-outs, no matter how well-intentioned.There are many private organisations throughout Bali that are sensitive to these issues. People wanting to help could do much worse than donating to them so they can continue to function, grow and do the things that they're best at. That's my view. Please consider. :idea:
