Thorsten
I'll say this again. Despite the best intentions of foreigners to make some selected children's lives better by paying for their school fees, uniforms, new clothes, shoes, books, pens and pencils, transport, health care and all the rest, it sometimes backfires. Even the children themselves come to feel "different" from their peers and in bad-case scenarios, ostracized. It's a sad thing to see. (I know because I've made the same mistakes myself, much to my own horror, but promised myself "never again".)[/quote]It's a dilemma, but while I would agree in general with your statement Phil, sometimes it doesn't make a lot of sense to put a limited budget into the whole community, while at the other side your "adopted family" will be still living in misery.At the one side of the coin a very little benefit for all, at the other side almost no affect for the single.I'm sponsoring two kids on Bali through Helen Flavel Foundation, when I've seen to environment where the boy has to grow up, I took me not even 5 seconds to understand that his "school career" will be finished soon without improving the life conditions of the whole family, so I decided to do so.I guess, I have already a kind of relationship with this family and with my intention to give this little boy a real chance for his life, I'm also hoping for the "snowball affect", maybe one day he will also help others due this engagement.I sometimes ask myself where will be more benefit, to support quantity, or better to "invest" in quality?Will mean, to enable somebody to break this circle of poverty and achieve economical independence under the consideration, that this person will create something to the benefit of the whole community, or to spread the money and reach some relief for a majority, though nobody would really improve substantial?Best regardsThorstenPS: here are some pictures[url]http://www.flickr.com/photos/81416999@N00/sets/72157594518805118/[/url]
Roy
Balimudder, it sure sounds like you have your hands full! :shock: Good luck with all your efforts. Hopefully it will eventually all work out fine for you. Phil writes,"As for Pak Roy never having seen signs of intra-village jealousy in his own village, that doesn't particularly surprise me. Roy's village, (correct me if I'm wrong here, Amigo), is a relatively affluent one. Not all of Bali's villages are in the same boat. Spend some time with very poor Balinese, (yes..they do exist), and you will quickly see signs of petty jealousy brewing (not always, but often)." [/quote]OK, fair enough Phil, you can consider yourself corrected! :roll: Bunutan is not in East Bali, to be sure, but there is plenty enough poverty in my village. Come by some day and I'll show you around!Frankly Phil, and I guess this will surprise you, but I have spent much quality time with some of the very poorest of Balinese. Within that group I have met some of the most noble Balinese I have ever met. I find your assumption that jealousy is limited to the poorest Balinese to cause me to seriously question how many Balinese, rich or poor, that you [b]really[/b] know. This comment, directed to me, "spend some time with very poor Balinese, (yes..they do exist)" is condescending and not appreciated. If you refrain from entertaining any pretense that you are in a position of lecturing me about Bali, we just might get along. Is that fair enough for you?
Sanurian
Yes, indeed, [b]Thorsten[/b]Couldn't agree with you more. It [b]is[/b] a dilemma. ...sometimes it doesn't make a lot of sense to put a limited budget into the whole community, while at the other side your "adopted family" will be still living in misery. At the one side of the coin a very little benefit for all, at the other side almost no affect for the single...[/quote]The "adopted family" still has to live in its village whereas the "sponsors" don't have to deal with the every day realities. That's an important consideration, don't you think?"A little benefit for all" is better than nothing. A lot of benefit for "the single" can create animosity (even danger). Empower village people by doing a "little" and let them deal with it, with your support in the background. There are very few amongst us who have the means to eliminate misery, wherever it rears its ugly head. Potential "saviours" are a dime a dozen. Many come, many fail and a few persevere. If one thinks a water pump for a village is an insignificant or uninspired project, maybe that person should build a better school, hospital, university and all the rest. Maybe even try to create meaningful job opportunities. Or take them to their own countries."A lot of sense" can be a specious idea, depending on where one is from. I don't see a lot of it in this world we live in. GW Bush is a hugely bad example.Slow but sure, tread carefully and never underestimate what people can do for themselves with a little bit of "help". :idea:
Sanurian
[b]Roy:[/b]...Frankly Phil, and I guess this will surprise you, but I have spent much quality time with some of the very poorest of Balinese...[/quote]You're right. I'm surprised. (Is that OK with you?)...I find your assumption that jealousy is limited to the poorest Balinese to cause me to seriously question how many Balinese, rich or poor, that you really know...[/quote]I "know" many poor Balinese, and a few rich ones. I don't think that I suggested jealousy is limited to the poorest Balinese at all. That's your interpretation.What gets me about you, [i]Amigo[/i], is how you often want to bite my head off, portray me as some kind of imbecile, etc. And I'm sure I'm not the only one. Whilst I appreciate having an "opponent" like yourself to do "battle" with on this forum, I don't see it as war zone. You seem to have this trait that manifests itself whenrvrt somebody doesn't agree with your "lectures"/opinions regarding all things Balinese.I try to post things based upon my own experiences, truthfully, in the hope that they might be useful to somebody. I have never pretended to be an "expert" about anything pertaining to Bali, Balinese, or its culture. 8)
Roy
Phil writes:"I "know" many poor Balinese, and a few rich ones. I don't think that I suggested jealousy is limited to the poorest Balinese at all. That's your interpretation."[/quote]That followed an earlier statement from Phil: (emphasis mine)"As for Pak Roy never having seen signs of intra-village jealousy in his own village, that doesn't particularly surprise me. Roy's village, (correct me if I'm wrong here, Amigo), is a relatively affluent one. Not all of Bali's villages are in the same boat. [b]Spend some time with very poor Balinese, (yes..they do exist), and you will quickly see signs of petty jealousy brewing (not always, but often).[/b] "[/quote]Ya, Phil, sorry to say but you DID suggest jealousy is limited to the poorest Balinese....and in simple plain English! Come on man! Your suggestion was that I get myself to a poor village to "quickly see" it for myself! Sorry Phil, but it is you with the problem, not me, and now currently manifested by your erroneous assumption that I have no regular contact with the very poorest of Balinese. Sorry, but I am not going to drag myself down to your level and personalize this disagreement, and if you think I owe you an apology, I advise you not hold your breath while waiting.
Jimbo
Does not take long before the old animosities raise their heads. :-) Come on Phil I honestly believe Roy is making a very determined effort to be polite but Roy will always be Roy just as you will always be Phil :-)Why do you not just for once let it g. It is a chat forum not a discussion to save the world. However you both do amuse me and that gives me at least a feel good factor.You both can be right (or Wrong) and in the overall scheme of things it is of very little importance who is.
Sanurian
[b]Roy[/b]You don't owe [b]me[/b] an apology. You owe [b]everybody else[/b] on this forum an "apology". Maybe you're not man enough to do that. A suggestion ([b]not[/b] a lecture): Swallow your pride, chill-out and try to be the "whole person" I once thought you were. For all of us. :idea:
Roy
Well then Phil, I can only suggest that you don't try to organize a group "hold your breath" session while waiting. :lol: Anyway, since Bert has already "de-personalized" your prior comments by removing them, I guess I'll just let your last comments pass. Have a good night!
Bert Vierstra
Anyone wants to adopt Roy or Sanurian? 8) Ok people topic locked, if you want to talk about adoption again start a new topic.
