Hmmm, without wanting to awake an Australian

L

Lothar

Member
outcry here - but isn't Mr. Howard a bit 'out of this world'? He surely doesn't make friends for Australia now, at least not in our region. If he wants to hop in Mr. Bush's bed with this he should be aware that he's inviting catastrophic trouble just in to Australia itself.


Howard stands by call to act against terror in Asia

CANBERRA -- Ignoring criticism at home and in Asia, Prime Minister John Howard on Monday reaffirmed his right to launch pre-emptive military strikes against terrorists in other countries.

Mr Howard told Parliament that if he knew of an impending terror attack against Australians -- and the only way to stop it was with military action on foreign soil -- he would order a strike.

He said: 'Any Australian prime minister unwilling to do that would be failing the most basic test of office.'

Speaking the day before on Australian television, Mr Howard suggested that the United Nations Charter be amended to permit a country to launch pre-emptive strikes against terrorists in other states.

His remarks sparked outrage among Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia and the Philippines, which regarded such action as an affront to their sovereignty and a threat to collective efforts in controlling terrorism.

But Mr Howard said his comments related only to the determination of his government to protect Australia, adding: 'Nothing that I said yesterday was in any way directed against the countries of our region.'

Meanwhile, his domestic opponents have accused him of trying to woo voters worried about terrorism following the Oct 12 attacks on Bali island.

Senator Andrew Bartlett, who leads the Australian Democrats Party, said: 'Short-term populism, I think, is putting Australians more at risk.'

Mr Keith Suter, an international law and conflict resolution specialist, said Mr Howard was still reacting to claims that his government did not warn tourists against travelling to Indonesia ahead of the Bali blasts despite intelligence warnings of a possible terror strike.

'The Prime Minister has been so stung by that reaction that he has now moved to the other extreme,' Mr Suter said. 'The trouble is what's sounding good here in Australia is obviously causing a lot of trouble overseas.' -- AP

http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/latest ... 73,00.html?
 
..and now we are at war

with Australia...oh, hehe, on reading my morning papers huge headlines grabbed my attention. But well, in this case I fully agree with Mahathir:

Malaysia Sees Australia Strike As War Act

By PATRICK McDOWELL
Associated Press Writer

December 2, 2002, 11:33 PM EST


KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia -- Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad said a pre-emptive strike by Australia against terrorists in Malaysia would be viewed as an act of war, while Australia tried to reassure its Asian neighbors on Tuesday.

The Malaysian leader was responding to a statement Sunday by Prime Minister John Howard that Australia could launch pre-emptive strikes against suspected terrorists if they were plotting attacks against his country or countrymen.

"We will hold this as an attempt to wage war against the government and the country if Australia pursues its intention to attack any country to tackle terrorism," Mahathir was quoted as saying late Monday by the national news agency, Bernama.

"If they used rockets or pilotless aircraft to carry out assassination, then we will consider this as an act of war and we will take action according to our laws to protect the sovereignty and independence of our country," Mahathir said.

Howard also said that the United Nations Charter should be modified to allow nations to strike pre-emptively at the terrorists.

Australia has been struggling with how to fight terror since the Oct. 12 bomb attacks in Bali, Indonesia, killed more than 180 people, about half of them Australian tourists.

But Howard's comments have angered Indonesia, the Philippines and Thailand, stoking fears that Australia acts as a deputy sheriff for an increasingly unilateralist United States in the region.

In Australia, Chris Kenny, a spokesman for Foreign Minister Alexander Downer, said that he was unaware of Mahathir's specific comments but that "there's been a lot of nonsense around about this issue."

Downer told CNN in an interview that "to extropolate from all of this that Australia's actually got some sort of new doctrine that it's going to bomb its neighbors is really just absurd."

Malaysian Foreign Minister Syed Hamid Albar said Monday that Australia is acting like a "big power" in Southeast Asia, at odds with its desire to join multilateral organizations like the Association of Southeast Asian Nations.

Malaysia contends that it needs no help in fighting terrorism, having been ahead of most of its neighbors in recognizing the danger and rounding up some 70 militant suspects since mid-2001.

Most of the suspects belong to Jemaah Islamiyah, an al-Qaida-linked group that has been blamed for the Bali attack and other plots and bombings in the region over the past few years. The group wants to establish a hard-line Islamic state in Southeast Asia.

Australia and Malaysia remain military allies under a five-power arrangement with the United Kingdom, New Zealand and Singapore. But verbal rows between the two countries are part of the regional landscape.

Mahathir recently urged Australia to choose between closer ties with Asia or its traditional alliance with the United States. An Australian opposition leader responded that Mahathir should take "a running jump."
 
Mixed emotions and thoughts here...

But these are just my own thoughts and "gut" feelings. PM Howard indeed did stick his foot in his mouth yet again, and most Ozites I know are waiting for him to pull it out. That the Australian SAS could pull off such a strike is undeniable. They are a first rate and highly skilled group of professionals. What PM Howard needs to learn, he could easily pick up from Israel or America. One does not discuss such options...one just does it if needed, makes sure that there is plenty of plausible deniability and learns to smile convincingly at the cameras held by the news crews asking the questions.

I find it hard to criticize the Australians though, in spite of PM Howard's lack of diplomatic skills. Who can in reality? Their response to 10/12 was immediate, without racial bias, and completely professional. Their action was in my view, at the core of what global citizenship is all about. They saved lives, many lives and from all quarters of the globe. And by the way, they did not ask permission to do it, nor did they announce in advance that they would act...rather, they just came and did their work. For that, my hat is off to both Mr. Downer and Mr. Howard.

In the event of an identified clear and present danger, I would expect the same professionalism, immediacy, and result of lives saved from our friends "down under."

Anyway, these are just my thoughts and feelings. What do you think?
 
Well, of course

you are right ref. the immediate help extended from Australia. Their own citizens were harmed, and that always speeds up. If there were 200 Malaysians harmed, Mahathir would have extended the same speedy help, no doubt about that. But that is not the subject of my article above.

What I see here is a deepening rift between Australia and the rest of Asia. That I don't find a good thing to happen, and that's why I posted the article :)
 
I hear you, loud and clear...but....just

for the record, I have to offer some clarification. In the wee hours of Sunday morning, October 13, I was engaged in e-mail contact directly to Alexander Downer's office. My e-mail was exchanged to his executive secretary, who asked me for a valid and accurate assessment. This was at the very time news reports were initially coming out, viz., 10, 12, 14 or so dead, and of course, these reports were only from local news sources.

I sent Mr. Downer a composite jpeg to support my initial analysis of the scope of this tragedy and its implications, and literally wrote, "this is the worst terrorist act since 9-11." At that early stage, I predicted well over 100 casualties, and many more if triage and burn specialists were not immediately sent to Bali. I am well familiar with Sanglah Hospital, and its woefully inadequate capabilities. This is not a criticism, but is a point of fact.

When Mr. Downer authorized the first wave of support to Bali, the extent of Australian casualties, as we know it today, was not at all known, or even conjectured. Indeed he did understand that many, many foreigners, or other westerners were involved, but his actions were purely based from a humanitarian point of view, and an understanding that in no way could the medical resources in Bali cope with this tragedy. When the first two planes departed Darwin to Bali, there was no understanding of just how many Australians were victims of this tragedy.

Also for the record, the first wave of Australian medical relief arrived well ahead of CNN, BBC, and any other international news reporting networks. The fact is, and it is well documented, the Bali bombing was the worst covered story in many years due to no network presence here (understandable) and no affiliations (not so understandable). The point in my mentioning this is that the Australians acted with minimal intelligence, and the trust of those few who provided an accurate and immediate assessment. It was not, as you write, because, "their own citizens were harmed, and that always speeds up."

That comment is unfair, inaccurate and I will personally not let it stand without the challenge of the truth in this matter, as I was personally involved. The Australian response was without bias, favoritism or nationalistic prioritization. That is the truth and it really bothers me that what they did, early on, is just considered within the context of so many of their citizens being effected. Mr. Downer, and his secretary NEVER asked me for my opinion as to just how many Australians may be involved in this tragedy...not ever. It never came up in our e-mail exchanges.

Yes, there were many more planes from Darwin that arrived after the first two came in the early hours of Sunday morning, and yes, I suppose one could speculate that was due to the understanding that so many Australians were involved. But, the initial response by Oz was NOT predicated on any known data concerning loss of life, or injuries to Australian citizens. Moreover, I like to think that the subsequent flights, and the total commitment rendered here by the Australians was as equally humanitarian as the first wave of help.

In my e-mail to Downer's secretary (which I have been asked not to divulge) I asked for two "extra" points. One was an agreement that any and all serious burn victims, be they Australians, citizens of other western countries, or Indonesian, all be treated in an equal, medically determined manner only. The other point was to put a squad (five men), of SAS on each plane, just in case they were needed to "clear customs" or some other baloney that could have been used to delay their disembarkation to Sanglah. To this day, I have no confirmation that such teams were deployed within the initial two planes, but my gut felling is that they were there, in the event they were needed. Thank God, they were not. But, as to my first point, the men and women from Oz showed no discrimination, favoritism or even nationalistic pride in dealing with the issues they faced at Sanglah and the military hospital.

I agree with you 100% that Australia has some serious issues with Malaysia to sort out. Australia's relationship with Malaysia has been sour for quite a number of years. I would also immediately criticize OZ for their handling of the Afghanistan boat people, or refugees.

Yes, my friend, PM Downer really did swallow his own foot with his recent comments. Obviously, those comments were meant more to calm the nerves and restore trust from his own citizens than they were ever intended to convey a threat to the sovereignty of any ASEAN country. That's what I think anyway, and I'll take Mr. Downer's faux pax anyday over Mr. Bush's.
 
Of course Roy

as I already said above, I don't want to criticize Mr. Downers efforts to assist in Bali in any way. It was a natural duty to do so as well.

We both agree on the political faux pas. And yes, it will be hard for Mr. Downer to win over Mr. Bush.
 
Australian response.

As I'm not into talking politics in public,I will not comment on the issue of relations between Australia and Asia but what I would like to comment on is this.....on the Sunday after the bomb in Kuta I was in Melati ward in a sea of chaos with everyone doing their utmost to cope with this devastating disaster.Some of us had medical knowledge,some didn't,but the amazing effort put in by all who came to help was truly very special and I believe deserves enormouse credit.We were literally standing in pools of blood,our feet and sandals soaked...when in came the TEAM from Australia...we all cheered and thanked our Gods for them I can tell you...they took control in the middle of a WAR ZONE...immediately recognised those capable and those not and set to work co-ordinating the volunteers into to some kind of order...it was an intensely difficult task for us all but without the medics and team members from Australia it would have been impossible. I am sure all the volunteers who were there will echo my words on this. I am very proud of all the people who took part in assisting the victims no matter where they came from.They were all treated equally....in fact in some cases one couldn't tell if the victim was Australian or Indonesian...they all looked the same with their swollen blackened faces...and horrific injuries...in fact often we couldn't tell if they were male or female except for traces of nail polish on fingers and toes. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that Australia should be congratulated for their prompt response and their handling of the situation. Politics is another matter....lets give credit where it's due...Australia deserves a medal for their part in saving the lives of hundreds of people and the volunteers need some official recognition for their enormous effort too.Many of these people were on holiday but when they heard what had happened they all went to Sanglah to offer what they could...doctors and nurses from many different countries held the fort until more help came...hundreds of people gathered outside the wards to offer money with which to buy medicine and bandages...there were runners dashing backwards and forwards to Apotiks (chemists) to buy more...they used their own funds....people brought in water for us all to drink...food was arranged for staff.volunteers and relatives...people mopped floors,changed bloody sheets...gave out sarongs to those who had their clothes burned off, helped relatives to identify their loved ones or just went looking ...looking...looking again...there was no panic...just an incredible co-ordination as though we were all on a training excersize...we all fitted together like pieces of a jigsaw puzzle. I am grateful for that experience...and I have learned much about life and death...and about people when faced with extreme trauma....I thank my God for the learning curve..it will stay with me forever...G....
 
Question for Lother

quote :Mr Howard told Parliament that if he knew of an impending terror attack against Australians -- and the only way to stop it was with military action on foreign soil -- he would order a strike.

With particular reference to " and the only way to stop it was with military action" my question to you Lother is, would a leader of any Asian country not take this action, including Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad?
 
well marcia

i think you can't put the question like this. The proper way would be to ask the authorities of 'that' country to take action. Certainly then the authorities of 'that' country will take action. That means if the 'only way' to stop 'it' would be military action then 'that' country's military must take that action, not Autralia's military. Only if 'that' country's military would refuse to take any action I would agree to an UN coordinated military solution inside 'that' country.
What Downer said here was understood as a threat towards all countries in Asia, by their respective Prime Ministers. This is the subject, please don't deviate.
 
wasn't deviating

hadn't thought of the couple of things you just brought up- that's why i asked. If there's one important lesson I've learnt in life, it's to forget egotism, ask, and learn. Not to ask is to remain in ignorance. The reason why i asked you for some good Chechen & Russian sites once. By the way, they were helpful, thankyou.
Perhaps you'll see this as a further deviation. It's not. Simply means i'll think about what Prime Minister Howard has said, ask questions, think again, & last of all, open my mouth to make comments.
 
agree Lothar

fully agree in this case with you Lothar,

it's a shame that one country claims on the compliance concerning resolutions of the UN to another country, while it self is not willing to accept also this resolutions in topics, which doesn't fit to them.
There is no equal measure to recognize in the policy of the USA , they demand to obey these resolutions from
states which they consider as a potential enemy, they claim the right to punish this states by their own, they state to ignore the decision of the UN, if the like to do, they are acting "blindfolded" regarding the crime of States, which are beneficial for their own interests, they even support these countries despite of UN decisions.

It is not acceptable that one nation, pardon one government is going to blackmail the rest of the world, they don't accredit the international higher court of law in Den Haag for their own citizens, while they demand indictment for the members of outer governments at this.
The Bush-administration is not respecting any international law nor the own law in the USA, that's why the prisoners of Afghanistan war are arrested at Cuba.
It is indeed very scary, that some countries are also jumping onto this train.

The patriotism in the USA is a higher property; but I hope that the American citizen will wake up soon and recognize, that this policy will cause more hate, more danger, more terrorism to them, than anybody would imagine now.
I was suffering with them at the 9/11, but they are not living on an island, they don't have to wonder, when American interests are threaten all over the world, they cannot longer ignore their own part of responsibility for this, it was Dick Cheney himself who provides Sadam the access to antrax 1988, delivered from US labors.

Without any doubt, they will attack the Iraq and their friends in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan will continue to support Islamic terrorism, isn't it absurd ?
 
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