Roy
As this topic, part two, is now locked (and without any explanation) is it safe to assume we move on to part three? :shock: :lol: :lol: Debate dua! What do you think?Trying to be as objective as possible, I saw the age of McCain really come to a head. He had no energy, he appeared beaten, and I really believe Obama was merciful. I don't think either got all that "meaty" in their responses, but McCain, who clearly had the most to loose, did in fact, loose it. It was almost like a public argument between a father and son. McCain's gesture towards Obama, and comment, "that one" will cost him dearly. Members of the US Senate just don't, or at least, shouldn't be so patronizing.Did any one else but me and a few others at Nuri's catch the handshake debacle at the end? What that said to me is that McCain is poor looser, and he is without class or dignity.So! What do you think?
milan
Don't forget Al Gore was 11 points ahead of Bush at this time of the Election. John Kerry won on all debates against Pres. Bush on the second Election. Just referring back to those times.And again I reiterate; "All are in the eyes of the beholder" so whatever will be the outcome, those who are pro-McCain will see the good sides of him and vice-versa.
chilli
I saw McCain when he lost it with the journalist, showing his true colours.definatly no class nor dignity.
Sumatra
They were both pretty wooden, Obama pine, McCain particle board, neither of which are great building materials.How do they pick the audience for these debates?If they'd filled those chairs with eighth graders, there probably would have been much tougher questions for them to contend with.Debate? What debate? Last night proved that two opponents with such similar policies (save for different funding methods) are just boring, it's no wonder McCain looked beat, he was. Then he became testy because he probably needed a nap. Same old lies we've been hearing for years, only this time much more is at stake, these two Bozo's are just as perplexed as their ultra-cultured, brainy Europeans counterparts on this one. I caught a live telecast from the British House of Commons this morning, they were all engaged in argument, on how to extract their collective asses from the financial sling they're in, the Germans have already refused to foot the bill. The satellite feed was abruptly cut off due to "technical difficulties" at this point, right in the middle of all their back and forth shouting. Iceland is in the toilet and the banks are all closed. I heard a reference to Iceland being "the canary in a coalmine" How accurate this analogy is I don't know.
BaliLife
was as interesting as a carefully strategized second presidential debate was likely to be given obama's position now of just having to safeguard his lead..no doubt, mccain is a bitter old man who finds it difficult to hide his disdain for obama.. all polls showed obama the clear winner of round 2 and i'm not sure if you noticed, but mccain's attack lines didn't resonate well with the viewers that were being surveyed real-time on cnn.. the end of the debate was more interesting than the actual debate - obama stayed back and toured the room and particularly spoke to those who might appear on mccain's side - in particular the former navy CPO.. very smart - all those characters will be interviewed and let's face it, if a presidential candidate gives you 5 minutes of his time to really talk to you, that's going to sit well regardless of whether he's your guy or not..more fantastic than obama's performance last night was his speech this morning in indianapolis - he really hit the ball out of the park..this may well end up being an inspirational year in US politics - i hope it is so not just for the rest of the world, but for american's also.. it is when man looks beyond what is, to what could be, that great things are achieved..ct
Roy
"this may well end up being an inspirational year in US politics..."[/quote]I sure hope so. For certain, it will go down "in the books" as the most theatrical! :lol: Of particular note to me is the extreme interest with non Americans in this particular Presidential election. Not only is their interest keen, but the awareness of the issues and the candidates often exceeds that of those who can vote. :shock:
BaliLife
my cousin was up here in vancouver when we arrived in august roy - he's from reston, va but studying at berkeley at the moment.. we were arguing about the importance of voting, and he was saying - "you know when you're from a red state, there's no point in even bothering to vote".. that's how fast it's changed - virginia's now a swing state and leaning towards obama (in fact it's considered by some to be a 'weak' blue state already) - i gave him a call and made him promise me that both he and his younger brother would both be getting their votes in..
Sumatra
In case anyone missed this piece by Anderson Cooper.[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvROBLortBQ[/url]Consorting with unrepentant domestic terrorists! Tsk, tsk, tsk. :D :D :D :D :D :D
Tony
Allow me to amend & update a famous quote:"misdirection and obfuscation is the last refuge of scoundrels"Sumatra's link above shows the last attempts by a candidate and party so severely lacking in any original thought, charisma, character and policy for implementing a necessary change and nothing more. These are talking points straight out of the Sean Hannity & Fux Noise Handbook on diversion and obfuscation.And in his attempts to paint a picture of six degrees of separation between Ayers and Obama, both Hannity & Sumatra neglect to tell you anything about William Ayers and his days since all charges were dropped by the government (due to illegal surveillance techniques employed by the government) in it's case against him for his deplorable and violent acts of domestic terrorism as a member of the infamous 60's-70's. SDS offshoot, the Weather Underground.RedBrains everywhere would have you believe that Ayers remains unrepentant for those wrongheaded and misguided acts as an idealistic young man trying to do his part to stop a senseless war machine raging in SE Asia. And while I am in no way condoning those acts of violence... in fact, I too, denounce them just as Sen. Obama has. There does, however, seem to be some evidence to discredit the attempts to portray Ayers current attitudes towards the use of violence as an unjust means to a just end. While the RedBrains drum the Ayers quote that he "regrets not having done enough....", there is the chance that what he meant was that he (Ayers) now realizes that those violent acts committed by the WE were ineffectual in pursuit of ending the Vietnam war. This interpretation seems wholly justified by his writings since 2001.From Wikipedia:"Chicago Magazine reported that "just before the September 11th attacks," Richard Elrod, a city lawyer injured in the Weathermen's Chicago "Days of Rage," received an apology from Ayers and Dohrn for their part in the violence. "They were remorseful," Elrod says. "They said, 'We're sorry that things turned out this way.'" In the months before Ayers' memoir was published on September 10, 2001, the author gave numerous interviews with newspaper and magazine writers in which he defended his overall history of radical words and actions. Some of the resulting articles were written just before the September 11 terrorist attacks and appeared immediately after, including one often-noted article in The New York Times, and another in the Chicago Tribune. Numerous observations were made in the media comparing the statements Ayers was making about his own past just as a dramatic new terrorist incident shocked the public.Much of the controversy about Ayers during the decade since the year 2000 stems from an interview he gave to The New York Times on the occasion of the memoir's publication. The reporter quoted him as saying "I don't regret setting bombs" and "I feel we didn't do enough", and, when asked if he would "do it all again" as saying "I don't want to discount the possibility." Ayers has not denied the quotes, but he protested the interviewer's characterizations in a Letter to the Editor published September 15, 2001: "This is not a question of being misunderstood or 'taken out of context', but of deliberate distortion."In the ensuing years, Ayers has repeatedly avowed that when he said he had "no regrets" and that "we didn't do enough" he was speaking only in reference to his efforts to stop the United States from waging the Vietnam War, efforts which he has described as ". . . inadequate [as] the war dragged on for a decade." Ayers has maintained that the two statements were not intended to imply a wish they had set more bombs.The interviewer also quoted some of Ayers' own criticism of Weatherman in the foreword to the memoir, whereby Ayers reacts to having watched Emile de Antonio's 1976 documentary film about Weatherman, Underground: "[Ayers] was 'embarrassed by the arrogance, the solipsism, the absolute certainty that we and we alone knew the way. The rigidity and the narcissism.' " "We weren't terrorists," Ayers told an interviewer for the Chicago Tribune in 2001. "The reason we weren't terrorists is because we did not commit random acts of terror against people. Terrorism was what was being practiced in the countryside of Vietnam by the United States."In a letter to the editor in the Chicago Tribune, Ayers wrote, "I condemn all forms of terrorism - individual, group and official". He also condemned the September 11 terrorist attacks in that letter. "Today we are witnessing crimes against humanity on our own shores on an unthinkable scale, and I fear that we may soon see more innocent people in other parts of the world dying in response."Views on his past expressed since 2001Ayers was asked in a January 2004 interview, "How do you feel about what you did? Would you do it again under similar circumstances?" He replied: "I've thought about this a lot. Being almost 60, it's impossible to not have lots and lots of regrets about lots and lots of things, but the question of did we do something that was horrendous, awful? ... I don't think so. I think what we did was to respond to a situation that was unconscionable." On September 9, 2008, journalist Jake Tapper reported on the comic strip in Bill Ayers's blog explaining the soundbite: "The one thing I don't regret is opposing the war in Vietnam with every ounce of my being.... When I say, 'We didn't do enough,' a lot of people rush to think, 'That must mean, "We didn't bomb enough shit."' But that's not the point at all. It's not a tactical statement, it's an obvious political and ethical statement. In this context, 'we' means 'everyone."Again, I am in no way attempting to justify or endorse any act of violence and especially not the bombings done by the WE. But... if we are suddenly going to make people guilty by association of the people living in their neighborhoods, serving on the charitable boards they serve on, or gulity because they received a $200 campaign contribution from them, then our good friend Sumatra was tres negligent in not mentioning the Palin's ties to the Alaska Independence Party, a secessionist movement in the State of Alaska founded by Joe Vogel, a self-proclaimed "raging anti-american".From Mr. Vogel:"My government is my worst enemy. I'm going to fight them with any means at hand."From Salon, 9/7/08:"Before his strange murder in 1993, party founder Vogler preached armed insurrection against the United States of America. Vogler, who always carried a Magnum with him, was fond of saying, "When the [federal] bureaucrats come after me, I suggest they wear red coats. They make better targets. In the federal government are the biggest liars in the United States, and I hate them with a passion. They think they own [Alaska]. There comes a time when people will choose to die with honor rather than live with dishonor. That time may be coming here. Our goal is ultimate independence by peaceful means under a minimal government fully responsive to the people. I hope we don't have to take human life, but if they go on tramping on our property rights, look out, we're ready to die."Vogler's greatest moment of glory was to be his 1993 appearance before the United Nations to denounce United States "tyranny" before the entire world and to demand Alaska's freedom. The Alaska secessionist had persuaded the government of Iran to sponsor his anti-American harangue.That's right ... Iran. The Islamic dictatorship. The taker of American hostages. The rogue nation that McCain and Palin have excoriated Obama for suggesting we diplomatically engage. That Iran."These AIP guys sound like real upstanding, patriotic, flag lapel-wearin' american types, doncha think?Now... here comes the tricky part. Hang onto your hat Sumatra, tinfoil easily gets carried away in even the lightest of breezes....There seems to be some confusion as to whether or not Sarah Palin was ever a member of AIP. There appears to be no confusion about Todd Palin's membership for seven years up until the time his wife ran for public office. There is absolutely no confusion about the fact that Gov. Palin videotaped an address aired at AIP's convention earlier this year where she encouraged the membership to "keep up the good work..."For a little background on AIP, from the LA Times 9/3/08:The Alaskan Independence Party, founded in 1978, initially promoted "the Alaskan independence movement." But now, according to its website, "its primary goal is merely a vote on secession."Skipping backwards again to Sumatra's YouTube link... if you watch the video, you will learn also that in 1997, the City of Chicago gave William Ayers it's "Citizen of the Year" award. I guess we're gonna have to round up the mayor and the council, subject them to rendition and lock 'em all up in Gitmo for "pallin' around with terrorists" too, eh?
chilli
America is, without doubt, a great nation, however......."Without Prejudice"Martin Luther King stated in 1967, "My government is the world's leading purveyor of violence." It didn't take much research to understand what Martin was saying. From the Native American massacres to the current times, America is indeed a leading purveyor of violence. Yes, Tuesday, 9-11, was shocking and horrible to watch as the WTC Twin Towers were attacked by "faith based initiative" hijacked planes and collapse, resulting in the deaths of over 5K people. However, was it not equally as shocking and horrible when the then President Bush attacked Baghdad and the rest of Iraq, and killed 200,000 people during that "war", which includes the infamous "highway of death" in the last days of the slaughter when U.S. pilots literally shot in the back retreating Iraqi civilians and soldiers. Was it not Shocking and horrifying when the sanctions on Iraq, which have resulted in the death of over 1,000,000 Iraqis, including over 500,000 children, about whom former Secretary of State Madeline Allbright has stated, their deaths "are worth the cost". What about the U.S. sponsored coup against democracy in Guatemala in 1954 which resulted in the deaths of over 120,000 Guatemalan peasants by U.S. installed dictatorships over the course of four decades. What about the events when the U.S. overthrew the government of the Dominican Republic in 1965 and helped to murder 3,000 people. Or the shock in 1973, when the U.S. sponsored a coup in Chile against the democratic government of Salvador Allende and helped to murder another 30,000 people, including U.S. citizens. How about the shock and horror in 1965 when the U.S. sponsored a coup in Indonesia that resulted in the murder of over 800,000 people, and the subsequent slaughter in 1975 of over 250,000 innocent people in East Timor by the Indonesian regime, with the direct complicity of President Ford and Secretary of State Henry Kissinger. What about the shock and horror of the U.S. sponsored terrorist contra war (the World Court declared the U.S. government a war criminal in 1984 for the mining of the harbors) against Nicaragua in the 1980s which resulted in the deaths of over 30,000 innocent people (or as the U.S. government used to call them before the term "collateral damage" was invented--"soft targets"). Anyone remember the horror inflicted by the U. S. war against the people of El Salvador in the 1980s, which resulted in the brutal deaths of over 80,000 people, or "soft targets",...or the shock and horror during the U.S. sponsored terror war against the peoples of southern Africa (especially Angola) that began in the 1970's and continues to this day, and has resulted in the deaths and mutilations of over 1,000,000. What of the shock and horror as the U.S. invaded Panama over the Christmas season of 1989 and killed over 8,000 in an attempt to capture George H. Bush's CIA partner, now turned enemy, Manual Noriega. What about how the Shah of Iran was installed in a U.S. sponsored brutal coup that resulted in the deaths of over 70,000 Iranians from 1952-1979. And the continuing shock of the Ayatollah Khomani, who overthrew the Shah in 1979, and who was the U.S. public enemy for decade of the 1980s, was also on the CIA payroll, while he was in exile in Paris in the 1970s. What about shock and horror of the how the U.S. has "manufactured consent" since 1948 for its support of Israel, to the exclusion of virtually any rights for the Palestinians in their native lands resulting in ever worsening day-to-day conditions for the people of Palestine. What of the hundreds of towns and villages that were literally wiped off the face of the earth in the early days of Israeli colonization,...or the horror in 1982 as the villagers of Sabra and Shatila were massacred by Israeli allies with direct Israeli complicity and direction. No, those scenes were not repeated over and over again on the national media to inflame the American public. What about the horrific events and images of Lebanon in the 1980s with resulted in the deaths of tens of thousand of people, with no reference to the fact that the country that inflicted the terror on Lebanon was Israel, with U.S. backing. What is shocking and horrifying how mainstream commentators refer to "Israeli settlers" in the "occupied territories" with no sense of irony as they report on who are the aggressors in the region. Isn't it strange that the Israelis are always "retaliating", but the Palistinians are always commiting terrorism. Of course, the largest and most shocking war crime of the second half of the 20th century was the U.S. assault on Indochina from 1954-1975, especially Vietnam, where over 4,000,000 people were bombed, napalmed, crushed, shot and individually "hands on" murdered in the "Phoenix Program" (this is where Oliver North got his start). Many U.S. Vietnam veterans were also victimized by this war and had the best of intentions, but the policy makers themselves knew the criminality of their actions and policies as revealed in their own words in "The Pentagon Papers," released by Daniel Ellsberg of the RAND Corporation. In 1974 Ellsberg noted that our Presidents from Truman to Nixon continually lied to the U.S. public about the purpose and conduct of the war. He has stated that, "It is a tribute to the American people that our leaders perceived that they had to lie to us, it is not a tribute to us that we were so easily misled." Was anyone shocked and horrified as the U.S. attacked and bombed with impunity the nation of Libya in the 1980s, including killing the infant daughter of Khadafi. Anyone shocked as the U.S. bombed and invaded Grenada in 1983,...or horrified by the U.S. military and CIA actions in Somalia, Haiti, Afghanistan, Sudan, Brazil, Argentina, and Yugoslavia. The deaths in these actions ran into the hundreds of thousands. America needs to realize that the tragedy of 9-11 was not unsolicited, nor a "sucker-punch",...it was a "faith based initiative" by those who agreed with Martin Luther King, that America is the world's leading purveyor of violence.
chilli
[url="http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=5984026"]http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=5984026[/url]
BaliLife
saw it on cnn and... who cares? guilty by association? a low-ball tactic by a desperate man and a desperate campaign.. i love it when mccain tries to empathize with the middle class, and his hag dressed up like a doll (cindy) shows up at the RNC in a $300,000 outfit..[url="http://www.vanityfair.com/online/politics/2008/09/cindy-mccains-300000-outfit.html"]http://www.vanityfair.com/online/politi ... utfit.html[/url]yes sumatra, mccain really understands you middle class battlers.. :| ct
Sumatra
Thank you Chilli,You've clearly illustrated why we [b]CAN'T LET ANYMORE TYRANTS, WITH BLOOD-SOAKED[/b] [b]ASSOCIATES[/b] be in control of this government. You say "faith based initiative" I'm asking, who's faith and what exactly was the initiative? Check this out.[url]http://pilotsfor911truth.org[/url] Please don't assail me with the tinfoil hat insult, unless you're willing to put a tinfoil hat on all of these professional pilots too. Both McCain and Obama will continue to carry on these deceitful and deadly policies until nuclear retaliation is finally added to the equation.We need alternatives.Tony,William Ayers will never reach a level of atonement that will ever be acceptable for what he's done. Would you have been such an apologist for Timothy McVeigh if he'd escaped prosecution on a wiretapping technicality, just because he said "Hey man, I'm really sorry about the bomb"?[i]You[/i] probably would, if he was an influential ally of your man Barack Obama. I just don't understand why this guys supporters are so blinded by infatuation.
chilli
a very interesting link, i watched it 5 times, a site i will revisit, so thankyou.similar to investigations by engineers and physicists into the collapse of the twin towers, many questions are unanswered !The video is saying that the information given by the government has no credibility and is a cover up.I've beleived this all along. Chilli
chilli
p.s sorry, to answer your question Sumatra,faith and initiative ?yes, for me it boils down to whose lie and whose agenda ?As far as Obama and McCain, It isnt about these personalities, it is about the party machine behind them. regards, Chilli
Sumatra
Correct.Very difficult to figure out who's pulling the strings on these two puppets. By following the money you only get a broad picture of who it might be.Speculation anybody??There's no need for anyone to get insulted here and go on the defensive, it's only an invitation to speculate upon underlying motives. It's like a game of chess, calculating your opponents next twelve moves, fun stuff.
tintin
Very difficult to figure out who's pulling the strings on these two puppets. By following the money you only get a broad picture of who it might be.Speculation anybody??[/quote]That one is easy: the military-industrial complex...it is happy with either party in power. When it comes to foreign policy both parties follow one single policy: imperialism.:evil:
Sumatra
Let's not forget the petro-chemical/pharmaceutical complex, which also relies on imperialistic tactics, almost as deadly and intrusive but not quite so blatant as war.Is there an effective way to disassemble a multi-tiered, overlapping structure fueled [i]by[/i] and rewarded [i]for[/i] acts of greed?Steadfast and consistent civil disobedience? Revolution? Resorting to violence in order to solve such a complex issue is so primitive and even if we were successful, we can't just send the enemy home as we did with the British in the 1700's because the enemy lives among us. During the power vacuum that revolutions always create, we'd be very susceptible to attack.What would we replace our broken system with? Anyone care to venture a guess?
chilli
hello , this is my husband Terry who would like to comment on your question. Good question, What do we replace it with ?A liberal, accountable, transparent democracy, oops, i think i just saw a flying pig.Real Political change begins at ground level. When we no longer just accept the "experts"and become an educated, aware, conscious and above all, secular society. A new paradigmmay just emerge. The despairing optimist.
mimpimanis
Hi Terry and welcomeHow about signing up too - or have Chillis forum takes put you off?? :lol: :lol:
