milan
[size=7][b]Fact Checking the Vice Presidential Debate[/b][/size]The vice presidential candidates went adrift with the facts on taxes and more Thursday at their debateAP Friday, October 03, 2008 WASHINGTON -- Facts went adrift on taxes, deregulation and more Thursday when Republican Sarah Palin and Democrat Joe Biden clashed in the vice presidential debate. Some examples: PALIN: Said of Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama: "94 times he voted to increase taxes or not support a tax reduction."THE FACTS: The dubious count includes repetitive votes as well as votes to cut taxes for the middle class while raising them on the rich. An analysis by factcheck.org found that 23 of the votes were for measures that would have produced no tax increase at all, seven were in favor of measures that would have lowered taxes for many, 11 would have increased taxes on only those making more than $1 million a year. ------ BIDEN: Complained about "economic policies of the last eight years" that led to "excessive deregulation." THE FACTS: Biden voted for 1999 deregulation that liberal groups are blaming for part of the financial crisis. The law allowed Wall Street investment banks to create the kind of mortgage-related securities at the core of the problem now. The law was widely backed by Republicans as well as by Democratic President Clinton, who argues it has stopped the crisis today from being worse. ------ PALIN: "Two years ago, remember, it was John McCain who pushed so hard with the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac reform measures. He sounded that warning bell." THE FACTS: Republican Sen. Chuck Hagel of Nebraska led an effort in 2005 to tighten regulation on the mortgage underwriters -- McCain joined as a co-sponsor a year later. The legislation was never taken up by the full Senate, then under Republican control. ------ BIDEN: Warned that Republican presidential candidate John McCain's $5,000 tax credit to help families buy health coverage "will go straight to the insurance company." THE FACTS: Of course it would, because it's meant to pay for insurance. That's like saying money for a car loan will go straight to the car dealer. ------ PALIN: "We cannot afford to lose against al-Qaida and the Shia extremists who are still there, still fighting us." THE FACTS: She appeared to confuse the two main Muslim sects in Iraq. Al-Qaida is solely made up of Sunni Muslim militants. Through the course of the war, U.S. forces fought ferocious opposition from both the Sunnis and the country's dominant Shiite sects. Now, both groups are largely maintaining a cease-fire with the U.S. A much-diminished al-Qaida, mainly foreign fighters, remains the primary threat. ------ BIDEN: Said McCain supports tax breaks for oil companies, and "wants to give them another $4 billion tax cut."THE FACTS: Biden is repeating a favorite saw of the Obama campaign, and it's misleading. McCain supports a cut in income taxes for all corporations, and doesn't single out any one industry for that benefit. ------ PALIN: Said the United States has reduced its troop level in Iraq to a number below where it was when the troop increase began in early 2007. THE FACTS: Not correct. The Pentagon says there are currently 152,000 U.S. troops in Iraq, about 17,000 more than there were before the 2007 military buildup began. ------ BIDEN: "As a matter of fact, John recently wrote an article in a major magazine saying that he wants to do for the health care industry -- deregulate it and let the free market move -- like he did for the banking industry." THE FACTS: Biden and Obama have been perpetuating this distortion of what McCain wrote in an article for the American Academy of Actuaries. McCain, laying out his health plan, only referred to deregulation when saying people should be allowed to buy health insurance across state lines. In that context, he wrote: "Opening up the health insurance market to more vigorous nationwide competition, as we have done over the last decade in banking, would provide more choices of innovative products less burdened by the worst excesses of state-based regulation." PALIN: Said Alaska is "building a nearly $40 billion natural gas pipeline, which is North America's largest and most expensive infrastructure project ever to flow those sources of energy into hungry markets." THE FACTS: Not quite. Construction is at least six years away. So far the state has only awarded a license to Trans Canada Corp., that comes with $500 million in seed money in exchange for commitments toward a lengthy and costly process to getting a federal certificate. At an August news conference after the state Legislature approved the license, Palin said, "It's not a done deal." PALIN: "Barack Obama even supported increasing taxes as late as last year for those families making only $42,000 a year." BIDEN: "The charge is absolutely not true. Barack Obama did not vote to raise taxes. The vote she's referring to, John McCain voted the exact same way." THE FACTS: The vote was on a nonbinding budget resolution that assumed that President Bush's tax cuts would expire, as scheduled, in 2011. If that actually happened, it could mean higher taxes for people making as little as about $42,000. But Obama is proposing tax increases only on the wealthy, and would cut taxes for most others. In the March 14 budget resolution supported by Obama and Biden, McCain actually did not vote. PALIN: Said a McCain-Palin administration "will support Israel," including "building our embassy ... in Jerusalem." THE FACTS: Moving the U.S. Embassy from its present location in Tel Aviv to Jerusalem is a perennial promise of presidential candidates courting the Jewish-American vote. In fact, moving the embassy is actually required by U.S. law. But successive administrations of both parties, including President Bush's, have made the same pledge only to find that the realities of Middle East peacemaking have forced them to invoke a waiver to delay it. Jerusalem is claimed as a capital by both Israel and the Palestinians, and Israel's occupation of east Jerusalem is not internationally recognized. The city's status is a key issue of disagreement in peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians.__________________
Bert Vierstra
Please supply a link to the original article, and just quote a few lines plz...
milan
Can't Bert. I know you always prefer that but a friend sent me this as it is.Besides, I thought everyone would be at least come to a compromise since there's not a hint of partisanship in these facts whatsoever... :D
BaliLife
well expectations on palin were very low going into the debate and though she didn't blunder in her typical manner, she didn't put forward anything with any substance whatsoever.. biden masterfully refrained from sounding condescending, which is hard to do when you're debating someone as unintelligent as palin.. there were no major surprises and most analysts conclude that biden won comfortably, but palin didn't put the final nail in mccains campaign as some were worried she would - so the conservatives will be relieved..i also think it's rather pathetic that in the eyes of moderate americans biden needed to take it easy on her - i mean this barbie doll is running for vp - and somebody on bbc said it best.. biden didn't have to take it easy on her because she's a woman (although that's what the conservatives were leveraging on) - biden had to take it easy on her because she's got the intellect of a 6th grader and no-one likes to see an adult bullying a 6th grader..also, anybody who uses the term "liberal media" or "national liberal media" is a) ignorant b) completely clueless and c) a victim of conservative propaganda.. the national media in the US is, if anything to an outsider, conservatively biased. this is a punchline conservative commentators like bill o'reilly use to defend their guys when they've been made to look like the schmucks they are in the national media..i knew a fair bit about biden going into the debates but i certainly gained a lot of respect for him after watching him last night.. he's a straight talker and he's a genuine guy with a pretty tough life story.. he's a great debater and a quality intellectual.. the so called gaffs are usually him just talking straight from the heart without doing the typically political thing of thinking about it's ramifications first - and you gotta like that..ct
tintin
FACTS.You forgot one BIG fact: energy independence. McCain and Palin keep hammering it in spite of the reality. They think that, if repeated often enough, it will become reality. To them, although they give lip service to other forms of energy, "energy independence" means "oil independence": drill, drill, drill. As Biden reminded them, for the nth time, that this is a first class canard, the US has about 4% of world's oil, but consumes 25% of the world's production. At the present rate of consumption, [u]IF[/u] the US had total access to its oil reserves, they would last only ELEVEN years. :roll:
BaliLife
Ouch Don!!You must be pretty p*ssed today with the passing of the bailout plan :lol: 263 - 171..perhaps you can take your firearms and lead a revolt to overthrow congress?? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink: ct
Sumatra
Bert,What is a chemtrail? Did you mean contrail? :? What do either one of them have to do with the poor and often dangerous quality of the so-called food and medications the average American family ingests by the bus load on a yearly basis?For more on US food and pharmaceuticals check out [url]http://www.mercola.com[/url] It's a real eye opener.Don
Sumatra
Balilife,Bail out plan!? It's a fraggin communist manifesto loaded with pork and earmarks to make it more palatable to traitors who have chosen to prostitute themselves to the left.Anyone who was stupid enough to stick their hand in the treasury's honey pot, will [b]NEVER[/b] get a return on their investments.They'd have a better chance of dipping their god damned hand in a bowl of piranhas and getting their hand back with a piece of skin on it. Idiots, every one of them.They all fell for the dire risk story again. Everyone had all of the horror stories memorized about what would happen if the bill [b]WASN'T[/b] passed but the great administration storytellers didn't give anyone a clue about what would happen if the bill [b]WAS[/b] passed.Nothing will happen. It's a damn speed bump, this economy is crashing no matter what and it's going to drag down a few other countries with it to boot.Don :x
BaliLife
:lol: :lol: :lol: i don't know why, but i'm happy right now...keep smiling don :wink: ct
Roy
Daniel, is it safe to assume that your hands are better now? If so, that's good news.What is the name of that great movie about an infamous Wall Street trader (played by Al Pacino I think) with the famous line..."greed is good?" I'm thinking of getting a copy of it to show to Eri so she can better understand some of what's behind this current mess.
tintin
The name of the film is [i]Wall Street[/i], and the leading actor is Michael Douglas, in the role of Gordon Gekko, a corporate raider.Regarding my "hand", thanks for asking. Actually, it was one month ago today that I tore the distal tendon from my right biceps. :evil: :cry: I had an operation to reconnect it to the ulna one week later, and I have a full-arm cast ever since. It is coming off next Friday. Then I'll have another kind of "removable" (?) cast for two more weeks, during which time I will do exercises to progressively straighten my arm. This will be followed by 3 months of rehab to rebuild the biceps. As a result, I can hardly type with one finger of my left hand, since, as you could have guessed, following Murphy's Law, that I'm right-handed... :roll:
Roy
Thanks Daniel! Why I was thinking Al Pacino is beyond me.Best wishes for continued good luck with your arm. I tend to read your posts twice...savoring every word of our similar political outlook. So, many thanks for your outstanding extra effort! You would have LOVED being at Nuri's yesterday morning to watch the Biden/Palin debate. There must have been 50 of us there...and not a single Republican in sight! :P
BaliLife
The name of the film is Wall Street, and the leading actor is Michael Douglas, in the role of Gordon Gekko, a corporate raider.[/quote]one of the best movies of all time!and not a single Republican in sight! :P[/quote]now that sounds like a likable crowd!
Sumatra
Balilife,Why does that make you happy? The tidal wave of economic discontent will almost surely wash up on the shores of Surabaya, Bali and the rest of Asia fairly soon.[b][color=#00BF00][/color][/b] [color=#00BF00]Leave out the stinging remarks[/color]Historically speaking, Indonesia's relationship with the west has always suffered when democratic administrations were at the helm in Washington. Do you think O'Fraudma is going to magically change this?Don :?
Roy
"The tidal wave of economic discontent will almost surely wash up on the shores of Surabaya, Bali and the rest of Asia fairly soon."[/quote]I think most economists would say that Indonesia is likely in one of the best positions to weather the coming financial storm. A major reason for this is that most of Indonesian exports are in essential commodities...palm oil, wood, natural gas, oil, clothing, agricultural, etc. Indonesia is currently enjoying a healthy trade surplus, and it is the only Southeast Asian country that is a member of OPEC. As for Bali specifically, current tourism numbers are greater than expected, and I can't find where anyone is predicting any future likelihood of a down turn in those numbers."Historically speaking, Indonesia's relationship with the west has always suffered when democratic administrations were at the helm in Washington."[/quote]I can't understand how that statement can be made. It could make for an interesting discussion, but I can't see any correlation between Indo/US foreign relations to which particular party was in the White House. If, by your statement, you are referring to the Clinton administration, yes, it was tough on Indonesia primarily over human rights issues. However, at the same time, the Clinton administration never agreed to a de-recognition of Indonesian sovereignty over East Timor.
Sumatra
I have a question.Why can't O'fraudma produce an original US birth certificate that [u]all[/u] the forensic document experts can declare authentic without any reservations? (Three experts are already on record declaring the document he produced is a very clever fake.)It seems like a simple request, my birth certificate could satisfy an army of forensic document experts concerning points of authenticity.Besides, if by his own admission he was actually adopted by his Indonesian father, wouldn't this make him an Indonesian citizen and not eligible to run for the office of US president?Why can't anyone seem to find his selective service registration? Again, my own is quite easy to locate.Why won't O'fraudma release his;Columbia records or, thesis paper,Harvard records,Occidental records,Illinois state senate records,Parents marriage certificate,Record of baptism (he's christian right?)[b]ALL[/b] of his medical records!!!???If he had the ability to shut down his detractors by the simple act of making these documents public, why wouldn't he just do it for the betterment of his campaign?This former dope smoking ex-coke snorter is the [b]WRONG[/b] man for the job and shouldn't even have been considered, for coming to the interview with a questionable and impossible to verify resume'.Don :P
Bert Vierstra
Its a conspiracy.Just after he has been sworn in, he will declare the US an Islam state, and the union with Indonesia to form a new World Order.Actually the preparations for a few [i]nucular[/i] missile basis have started already near Jakarta.
Sumatra
Well Bert,He has thus far refused to make these documents or credible certified copies thereof available for public inspection. Since we as voters are in effect "hiring" this guy for an extremely important position his resume' needs to be complete and verifiable.How else can trust be properly fostered?Assuming some of you may be business owners, would any of you hire this guy for a charge position just because he was charismatic, charming and had a way with words?The hell you would!!!!!!!!!! As a business owner you'd turn him inside out to make sure he wasn't going to go off stupid and red line your business. [b]COMMON SENSE, NOT CONSPIRACY [/b][b]THEORY.[/b]Some people on this forum go on and on about how Sarah Palin was improperly vetted. What about the messiah? You all think her education and qualifications suck but at least she made them available for public scrutiny.By the way, has anyone been able to find a credible source for the messiah's aforementioned records?Don :wink:
Bert Vierstra
What about the messiah?[/quote]I believe.
tintin
Sumatra,Why can't O'fraudma produce an original US birth certificate that all the forensic document experts can declare authentic without any reservations? (Three experts are already on record declaring the document he produced is a very clever fake.)[/quote]Don, you have succumb to TOTAL paranoia! :lol: :lol: First, I would bet the bank that the US Government commission which certifies the eligibility of a US Presidential candidate has in its possession, among other documents, an [b]official[/b] birth certificate from the State of Hawaii. (They also do have experts to verify the authenticity of the documents, you know).Second, this "news" of a fake birth certificate comes from the [i]Israelinsider[/i], an extreme right (Likud) daily newsmagazine. As you obviously seem to ignore, this newspaper has led an anti-Obama disinformation campaign in Israel, led by Natan Sharansky and the likes.Anyway, since the truth is finally coming out, as an Obama supporter, I must do the honorable thing and come out of the closet myself: [b]All?hu Akbar[/b] 8)
