Bert Vierstra
Continued from:[u][brl:21pq77i5]http://balipod.com/bali-part-the-world-f34/obama-and-biden-t21171-112.html[/brl:21pq77i5][/u]and[u][brl:21pq77i5]http://balipod.com/bali-part-the-world-f34/obama-and-biden-t21171-128.html[/brl:21pq77i5][/u]Please continue here.... Thanks!
SG
Thanks Bert:From [url=http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/09/why_im_voting_for_obamabiden.html]Ed Koch[/url] today: So the issue for me is who will best protect and defend America.I have concluded that the country is safer in the hands of Barack Obama, leader of the Democratic Party and protector of the philosophy of that party. Protecting and defending the U.S. means more than defending us from foreign attacks. It includes defending the public with respect to their civil rights, civil liberties and other needs, e.g., national health insurance, the right of abortion, the continuation of Social Security, gay rights, other rights of privacy, fair progressive taxation and a host of other needs and rights.If the vice president were ever called on to lead the country, there is no question in my mind that the experience and demonstrated judgment of Joe Biden is superior to that of Sarah Palin. Sarah Palin is a plucky, exciting candidate, but when her record is examined, she fails miserably with respect to her views on the domestic issues that are so important to the people of the U.S., and to me. Frankly, it would scare me if she were to succeed John McCain in the presidency.[/quote]
Jim Thorpe
I am amazed at the amount of vitriol spewed here...Thorsten, are you calling me a dumb ass? For POSTING what people are saying here in the U.S.? I think I have been very clear that I am TELLING YOU WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE! NOT WHAT I BELIEVE. I HAVE STATED THIS TIME AND TIME AGAIN. This time I will state my views. The U.S. is not the worst country in the world. Does it have faults? Yes. Am I happy with George Bush, NO! Is Obama the change people are looking for? NO. Is Palin? NO. Am I happy with the choices? NO. Do the Republicans want to kill foreigners? NO. Do the Democrats hate america? No. Are there good people on both sides? Yes. Are people who don't agree with me dumbasses? No. Do some people piss me off? Yes.Tintin did last year. Do I have good friends that I disagree with politically? Yes. Roy, my best man at my wedding. The friends I took to Bali last year. So I think what you all want is for me to say is this. So I will say it. You are all right. George Bush really is Satan, if you shaved his head you will find 666. The U.S. is the worst offender in the world and we should bow to the world's public opinion when chosing a president. The communist counties are much better and the U.S. should have pursued communism instead of democracy. The U.S. caused all the wars since it's existence. They have never done anything good...There you go. I beg your forgiveness. I was blinded because I have lived with the savages of Iowa too long, call it a type of Stockholm syndrome. Your insults against my neighbors, country and myself have made me see the light. Your persuasive ability is no longer suspect. I once was Saul but now I am Paul. Thank you all. Don't worry guys...If and probably when McCain gets elected you can continue to believe your reasons why Obama lost...that dumb hicks in the midwest did it because they are dumb and inbred...that the courageous democrats fought the good fight against the evil republicans but Karl Rove and company cheated and corrupted the voting machines...whatever floats your boat. You can continue to tell the voters of the U.S. what dumbasses they are and why they are wrong. It won't win the election. Deny all you want but if you continue to attack, demean, insult the very people you want to persuade then I suggest that your candidate will continue to lose. There is a well known saying in sales...Don't call your customer's baby ugly. You continue to call the americans baby ugly and you will continue to have people vote just to spite you. Not saying this as a conservative or a liberal, just saying this as someone who understands that politics is sales and the democrats have not been doing a good job selling.
milan
Jim, even though I don't know you, I just like to convey that I know many who support Bush and the present presidential nominees but keep quiet about it. Hope you take it to your heart and leave no resentment rules your everyday life.
Sumatra
Has anyone heard whether or not, O'BS has managed to produce an original birth certificate or, a certified copy thereof?Don
Sumatra
Change, change, change. Everybody wants it or, do they?If my fellow Americans could tear themselves away from their wide screen HDTV's for a moment and stop buying into the soap operatic BS being fed to them, they'd realize that true change lies in a third party candidate vote.What could possibly send a louder and clearer message than that!? Neither one of the parties currently battling it out will ever give us a fair shake. I have a friend who's an IT pro and I asked him one time how he would track down a computer virus and eradicate it from an operating system.He simply told me that he wouldn't waste his time. He'd either do a clean reinstall of the original operating system or, install a different operating system altogether. This man is a computer guru in charge of two full service hospitals and at first I thought he was joking but then I remembered that he doesn't have a sense of humor in the first place. However, if you give his solution more than a casual thought, it makes perfect sense.Why are we wasting our time and votes on these losers? It's time to wipe the slate clean for real and try a different operating system. Notice how I didn't say better or worse but only different. It should be obvious to anyone reading this, that we can't do a clean reinstall at this point. THESE TWO PARTIES ARE INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM ONE ANOTHER :!: :!: :!: How can anyone be asked to make a choice between raw excrement or a sour puddle of vomit? Yet, that's exactly what we're being asked to do! The very thought of wasting a vote on one of these four trolls does very bad things to my stomach. Real change begins with a real change, I'm not saying a third party candidate would be a panacea but we have to begin somewhere. I'm only one man, with one vote but to effect true change, everyone of like mind needs to act in cohesive unity and I don't think this can be accomplished in a nation so divided.Don
BaliLife
The very thought of wasting a vote on one of these four trolls does very bad things to my stomach.[/quote]sumatra, i'm glad you live in a slate where your vote matters not the slightest.. i also contend that your ravings are as silly as evangelicals who are masturbating over palin because she think's the US is fighting god's war in iraq and because she thinks a 12 year old girl that's raped by her father shouldn't legally be allowed to have an abortion.jim, politics is selling, correct - but the rest of the world doesn't need to sell americans an american president, and we're well within our rights to look upon your nation and its society with a level of disdain that we might otherwise reserve for any other largely uneducated and uncultured group of individuals.George Bush really is Satan, if you shaved his head you will find 666. The U.S. is the worst offender in the world and we should bow to the world's public opinion when chosing a president. The communist counties are much better and the U.S. should have pursued communism instead of democracy. The U.S. caused all the wars since it's existence. They have never done anything good..[/quote]well if you insist.. :wink: I beg your forgiveness.[/quote]conditionially granted upon your voting for obama.. :) ct
Roy
It also made me groan when I heard Palin associate the current war in Iraq to God...as if it is just, because of that association. God knows how unjust that war is, but if it makes her feel better sending off her son today to fight there, then so be it. The American invasion of Iraq is the most unjust and horrible act we have ever committed as a country since the Civil War, and by a country that is sworn to the ideology and oaths of each of the three essential documents that form the basis of our country....The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, and The Bill of Rights. Have we gone so far backwards that we are ready and willing to re-live the Crusades? And why are the Islamic people always associated with terrorism, when terrorists methods have been used for centuries, and while Islam is hardly responsible for most terrorist acts of the 20th century? Just Google the King David Hotel for quick introduction as how the Israelis once used terrorism. Why is it that Americans fear Muslims so much? Are Americans the most ignorant people on this planet? Are we seriously going to consider electing a Vice President whose claim to fame is that she's a "hockey mom" and can field dress a moose? Has the world turned upside down? Have we gone crazy? Regardless of the outcome November 4, history will record the election year 2008 as the year of "living absurdity"...assuming of course that someone is still alive to record the historical record.Anyone who watched, and listened to Palin's first press interview must either be digging a fallout shelter (back to the 50's) or seriously planning a move to Bali, or OZ...ala, "On The Beach." War with Russia over Georgia is NOT an option, but Palin thinks it could be, if Georgia became a NATO member and Russia invaded again. NATO stands for the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Has anyone checked lately just how far away from the Atlantic is Georgia? NATO is a defensive alliance established right after WWII, and during the begining of the cold war against the Soviet Union. Personally, I don't blame The Russian Federation for getting really "pissed off" about this treaty being used NOW, and in the "new world" AFTER the Soviet Union has been dismantled. Anyone out there care to re-visit the Cuban missile crisis? "Walk a mile in their moccasins" and please...let's not invite the Russians to a re-match! Not long ago I used to think that "running amok" was an Indonesian thing. Not anymore! Running amok is now the Republican song!Sorry Jim, old friend, but your belly aching just doesn't "cut it" with me...nor do I know anyone else who I regard and cherish as much as you, and your family, who can possibly defend the Republican ticket. In fact, I am willing at this stage to publicly declare that in my opinion, any American who votes for the Republican ticket this year in the Presidential election is not someone I wish to associate myself.I say this because in my mind, the choice is very clear...not even close...and I think we all want to see an end to American aggression and a restoration of the country we love as a leader by example, as well as word. That's what the folks I hold dear also think, and that thinking transcends politics.
Sumatra
BaliLife,When I stated that I was only one man with one vote, it was an admission that my single vote mattered not. :lol: Did you miss that boy?Raving? Perhaps you should look this word up, the fact of the matter is that wasting a vote on "Lumpy" McCain or, O'BS will never effect the kind of change this country needs. Whatever line of demarcation that used to exist between the republicans and democrats has long ago been smudged into invisibility. No choice is still no choice when viewed from [b]any[/b] perspective.Including me with self-pleasuring evangelicals and the uneducated masses was a low blow, even for you boy.So, boy wonder from down under or, Vancouver or, Bali or, wherever you plan to hang your hat next, the only answer you have is O'BS!? Please educate us dumb ass Americans better than this oh "all knowing child of Oz." You know nothing kid. It's easy for you to look down your nose upon us with disdain and stupidly give counsel on how we should vote because [b]you don't have to live with the results MR. NO ALLEGIANCES.[/b] When the time comes, I'll be voting for Ron Paul and as stated previously third party candidates are no panacea but they represent [b]real change[/b] something the other two idiots only pay lip service to.
Bert Vierstra
Ok. Sumatra and Balilife, this is going the wrong way.This a warning. Play the Ball, not the Man.
Sumatra
Hey RoyHave you ever seen an Antonov 124? The US is dropping off one heavy battle tank after another on the far Western front of Afghanistan, with Ukrainian registered Ruslan's. Why would they do that!? I thought the Russians pretty much proved that tanks were useless in Afghanistan from '78-'89. Whoopsie! I just remembered that Eastern Iran is really flat and perfect for tank warfare! Isn't that just the darnedest coincidence?I realize that the Iranians and Russians don't really have much in common however, US policies in this region could give what's become a tacit friendship, a violent shove into full blown ally status pretty quickly. What do you think? :wink: Don
Jim Thorpe
Roy my friend,This is what is frustrating. You just spent half of your message saying that "running amok" is part of the republican song, pointing out the stupidity of Georgia joining NATO, etc. While it was elegant prose, it has one problem..but you didn't actually check to see Obama's stance...He too is for Georgia's entrance into NATO. [url="http://obama.senate.gov/press/080303-obama_statement_128/"]http://obama.senate.gov/press/080303-ob ... ement_128/[/url]See follow-up;[url="http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0808/Obama_also_cites_NATO_membership_for_Georgia.html"]http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/ ... orgia.html[/url] So is Obama "running amok" too? Or is it just when Republicans say it?
Jim Thorpe
Balilife-Certainly you are able to look at us with distain and that is a beautiful thing...but it was my impression that people on this forum were actually DEBATING and DISCUSSING candidates, not just shouting insults about one another's country and countrymen. By the way, weren't you one of the people that was offended by my French tirade of last year? Hmmm, I guess it is only fashionable to insult americans and the U.S. :roll: In fact, I will again point out that if you review this thread (and the preceding one) you will notice that it is only the Obama supporters that insult people, insult countries, make fun of physical deformities and threaten to sever friendships. But as Milan says, there are many that support Bush but are keeping quiet about it...so to all you Obama supporters, congratulations on shouting down the opposition. You may think the silence is agreement or a victory for your candidate but it is embarrassment over all the noise you are making.
BaliLife
out of respect for bert and this forum, i will refrain from further conflicting posts on this matter, yet my feelings are that of roy's..while in australia i can sit alongside my best mate who may be an avid liberal party (australian conservative party supporter) and remain the best of friends, a difference exists between him and his american conservative counterparts.. the hearts of australian conservatives have not yet been painted black with ignorance american conservatism represents..how many low income earners with no healthcare in the US will go to the polls this year and vote republican because obama's black, or because palin's a hockey mom, or even worse, because they don't realize they'd be financially better off under the democrats, both in terms of tax and healthcare? that's the reality, ignorance and democracy are a dangerous combination..ct
Jim Thorpe
"how many low income earners with no healthcare in the US will go to the polls this year and vote republican because obama's black, or because palin's a hockey mom, or even worse, because they don't realize they'd be financially better off under the democrats, both in terms of tax and healthcare? that's the reality, ignorance and democracy are a dangerous combination.."Perhaps a number will do so but they have been told stories by both parties so long that they no longer believe anything the politicians say...I also wonder how many voters will vote against McCain/Palin because they disagree with their policies not knowing that Obama has the same policies.
SG
But as Milan says, there are many that support Bush but are keeping quiet about it...so to all you Obama supporters, congratulations on shouting down the opposition. You may think the silence is agreement or a victory for your candidate but it is embarrassment over all the noise you are making.[/quote]A BBC poll a few weeks back put the percentage supporting a Republican victory outside the US at just over 9%. The Dems got 79%.
Roy
Jim, it would be political suicide to declare disagreement with Georgia's entry into NATO. But it seems to me that an Obama administration would be far more effective in dealing with Russia than another four years of war mongering. Jim, it could be that the remaining Bush supporters are quiet about it because they are too embarrassed to admit it and speak their side. There is a good reason that his approval rating is less than one third. The RNC wasn't about policy change, nor was it about any change at all. Rather it was all about mom, apple pie, red white and blue, patriotism, saber rattling, and scaring the pants off of Americans convincing them that the boogey man is real, and is hiding under their beds. It was pathetic, and in stark contrast to the DNC which was about hope, real change, and improving the lives of the American people. Don, I think we can all agree that if US policies are pushing Iran into a stronger alliance with Russia, then that is not in the best long term interests of the US, nor does it contribute to stability in the region. It scares the dickens out of me to think of a maverick and a hockey mom being at the center of US foreign policy for the next four years. I understand your desire to vote for a write in or third party candidate in this election. If the past is any indication, votes for those third and forth party independents has always hurt the Democrats, and in essence, a vote that way is almost a de facto vote for the Republican party.
SG
I also wonder how many voters will vote against McCain/Palin because they disagree with their policies not knowing that Obama has the same policies.[/quote]There is a huge point of difference Jim, and it's mostly evident in the corruption implied in the selection of Palin.To select a VP purely on vote catching ability rather than her ability to be VPOTUS is thoroughly corrupt. They didn't vet her correctly (as admitted by the guy who was supposed to do it and supported by voluminous non-partisan evidence) and the ABC interview underlined how ill prepared and dangerous she is. To threaten a nuclear holocaust (because that is exactly what war with Russia would mean) or to fail to have any grasp, or understanding of the cornerstone policies of the administration she's hoping to replace, beyond simplistic sloganing, is more than outrageous, it indicates that she is only on the ticket for political advantage.And that indicates how little McCain cares about America and those middle Americans you talk of Jim. Not only not care, he despises you. You are just there for fodder for the corporations that pay his bills and the military industries that the GOP is so closely aligned with. He despises you so much he will add a woman to the ticket who is thoroughly and dangerously unprepared and inappropriate for the job, just because of the vote catching wow factor.And Obama did none of that, his VP choice was thought out and responsible and that's a massive and overwhelming difference. Throw in those sleeze ads, which have sunk as low as you can get (and all sorts of of media have pulled them on it) which say 'endorsed by John McCain' and you have a candidate who will do anything to get in and I would guess would be despised by the John McCain of a decade ago, before he sold his soul, as much as the current John McCain shows disdain for middle America.
tintin
Allow me to add to Roy's comment regarding NATO. NATO's drive eastward is a betrayal of a promise made by Bush Senior to Mikhail Gorbachev.In February 1990, Secretary of State James Baker reassured Michael Gorbachev and Russian Foreign Minister Edward Shevardnadze that NATO's jurisdiction would not expend eastward from its position at the time, except for East Germany, now part of a united country. The Russians, in good face, agreed to the deal. Well, Gorbachev got screwed by the Americans and never got kissed. Almost immediately, the Bush Senior Administration started reneging on its pledge, and the following Clinton Administration reneged altogether, expending NATO to Eastern Europe. Now the Bush-le-Petit Administration has gone even further, with its dream of incorporating Georgia, Ukraine, and would you believe Azerbaijan. Now, how do you think the rest of the world looks at these United States' duplicity? And if you were Vladimir, wouldn't you think that enough is enough? :evil:
SG
[url=http://jamesfallows.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/09/the_palin_interview.php]This[/url] is worth a read, with the above in mind, although similiar threads are cropping up all over the media, right and left:A further point. The truly toxic combination of traits GW Bush brought to decision making was:1) Ignorance2) Lack of curiosity3) "Decisiveness"That is, he was not broadly informed to begin with (point 1). He did not seek out new information (#2); but he nonetheless prided himself (#3) on making broad, bold decisions quickly, and then sticking to them to show resoluteness.We don't know for sure about #2 for Palin yet -- she could be a sponge-like absorber of information. But we know about #1 and we can guess, from her demeanor about #3. [b]Most of all we know something about the person who put her in this untenable role.[/b][/quote]
