Bert Vierstra
Ok, in another threat we are getting annoyed about Roy's "Hee I am here, I know, and you don't", and ofcourse this (his) attitude can put you off.
But, often, also on this forum, you hear a lot of suggestion of corruption in conversations amongst foreigners. And I am not talking traffic cop kinda stuff or small time grease money. Even people on this forum ask for ways to bypass laws, or suggesting they know howto.
Actually, I don't know any corruption cases, or cases where visa or something like that were bought.
Oh yes, there is a lot of hearsay and gossip, and on the internets you can find some stories. But until now, I never really got to know a case wich was clearly a corruption case in Bali.
Now, am I naive to think that foreigners create a too negative image of Bali amongst themselves, and "the world"? Is my feeling that foreigners often misuse "corruption" to explain things they don't understand, wrong?
Is there corruption? Sure. Everywhere is corruption, but on levels I'll never get close too. Even in the Netherlands. Is it worse in Indonesia? Sure.
But the picture of Bali painted as a pool of corruption and injustice I don't see.
In your life, how much real (no gossip) corruption do you encounter? (besides traffic cop stuff?)
[size=7] (I'll understand you wouldn't post information like this on a public forum, but maybe you know a way around telling the whole truth)[/size]
mimpimanis
A few examples.
I have personally paid a bribe when shipping my personal items from UK to customs to not have my CD collection taken away for censoring.
I was entering Bali with my best freind from UK who arrived on an Irish passport before the irish were granted VOA (I was not aware she was travelling on an Irish passport) She had to pay in the region of 5 million to be issued an "emergency visa" rather than be sent back to KL, our last transit point.
I have two other examples of Balinese people I know paying large bribes. However at risk of any come back on them or me I am not going to post the details here.
Roy
What is going on Bert is this ridiculous discussion about non paid, no profit charity work here in Bali. Some posters, who aside from the fact that they don’t live in Bali, also have never been involved with charity work, yet they don’t mind stating fiction as if it is fact.
I apologize that this has pissed me off to no end, but it is clear that this guy Sid, from Japan, is serious about getting personally involved with charity work here in Bali while on a sosbud visa. The fact that disinformation, or outright BS could dissuade him from the active charity endeavors he has mentioned, causes my blood to boil!
If in the pursuit of the truth during that discussion I rubbed some people the wrong way, in short, I could care less. The idea of Syd showing up in Bali, and perhaps changing a life, two, or more for the better far outweighs in my mind any egos I trampled on.
And, to answer your question...not at all for me. But then again, as some fools will tell you, I wear rose tinted glasses! :P :P :P
Bert Vierstra
Oh yes, I heard about the shipping "bribes", up to 25 million I believe, and the "emergency visa", ah well...
I also once paid about 6 million to get my father in law out of prison, but I still don't if this was a legit fine or something else or a combination of both. Probably the last.
Your friends, was it something big, like land deals, paying off penalties for big crimes?
mimpimanis
No, no crimes. Paying to get into a job. But significant amounts.
Bert Vierstra
[quote=mimpimanis]No, no crimes. Paying to get into a job. But significant amounts.[/quote]
Oh yes, to become a police officer, or get a job on a cruise ship or something locals have to pay a lot.
Even for jobs like in a hotel, or Spa people have to pay...
Roy
Bert, you’ll likely recall some years ago when Eri and I hosted photographer Petter Hegre and his equally famous Russian model wife, Luba? On the scheduled night of their arrival we got an urgent call from Singapore that there was a problem. Luba was being denied access to the Bali flight because she was traveling on a Ukrainian passport...no VOA.
It took us an hour or so of phone calls, a couple of FAXes, but no payments, and all was resolved.
In my ten years of experience here in Bali, I have always found government employees by and large to be cooperative, willing to help, patient and effective. I won’t say perfect, but I’d rather deal with an Indonesian government official any day over his or her American counterpart.
Bert Vierstra
[quote=Roy]I have always found government employees by and large to be cooperative, willing to help, patient and effective.[/quote]
I think so too.
Roy
OK, so where do all these urban legends come from? Aside from mad hatters, (you know who I mean), when have you ever heard a viable and believable story involving Indonesian corruption, extortion, illegal imprisonment, deportation, death, etc?
For the two or so times a month I may sit at Nuri’s with my cronies, I never hear of any of this either.
So, I ask again...where do these stories come from and why do they persist?
mimpimanis
[quote]when have you ever heard a viable and believable story involving Indonesian corruption,[/quote]
Are my examples neither believable nor viable?
Dont get me wrong I am not complaining about corruption just saying it does exist here.
The people who paid 40/50 million for a job are happy with their jobs.
I was happy my friend got her "emergency visa" or else I too would have felt the need to join her when she was sent back to KL.
Roy
Five people in my immediate Balinese family with government jobs. None paid a rupiah. This is the breakdown: Polda, 2, Immigrassi, 1, Customs, 1, TNI, 1.
Bert Vierstra
[quote=Roy]Five people in my immediate Balinese family with government jobs. None paid a rupiah. This is the breakdown: Polda, 2, Immigrassi, 1, Customs, 1, TNI, 1.[/quote]
Anyone with such a family gets pink glasses ;)
Roy
[quote]Anyone with such a family gets pink glasses[/quote]
I wouldn't be caught dead with pink. It's rose colored glasses Bert...only rose! :P :P
Bert Vierstra
Whatever color Roy, I don't think paying to get a job (an yes the police too) belongs to the urban legends department.
I have heard it so many times, and from close by too.
BaliLife
First hand, immigration, customs, citizenship, trademarking, army protection for civilians. First hand. All corruption. Not a bad thing for most.
I'm actually at a loss as to how you don't see it. Sure there are urban legends, but its real and in many ways makes life and business a whole lot easier in indonesia.
Roy, personally I don't believe that your referencees have never taken a rupiah - absolute nonsense.
Ct
chilli
my closest friend flew to Bali, she had 6 bottles of wine with her.
She was taken into a room/customs, asked for some money in lieu of keeping her alcohol and she walked out the door with her 6 bottles of wine.
I wish i could get away with that :wink:
SG
[quote=chilli]my closest friend flew to Bali, she had 6 bottles of wine with her.
She was taken into a room/customs, asked for some money in lieu of keeping her alcohol and she walked out the door with her 6 bottles of wine.
I wish i could get away with that :wink:[/quote]
I bought an old pc into Bali and the customs guy told me that it would cost me $1200 'duty' or it would be confiscated. It negotiated it down to Rp25,000 cash to the guy.
Last month two friends arrived and both were asked for a 'little something for me' by the VOA guys.
froggy
I was given the opportunity to get a visa stamp, for just pay, kinda expensive otherwise I would have, hell, it was almost as much as the plane ticket!....... And at the airport the guy asked me if I wanted to stay longer it would be $10 U.S...... and he gave me his # if anyone else wanted it.....but this is small fry stuff, I have seen a certain estabishment that was in the negotiation stages of the local "gift" to certain police, pissed me off, It was hard to set there and watch and had to be told several times to be cool......I really wanted to kick the crap out of them, but cooler heads at the table prevailed as this is just part of buisness.......I just didnt like seeing a friend get the shakedown, but like I mentioned this is a regular thing, I suppose I would never make it with an establishment there, I would kick them out, then be in jail for some bullshit reason, I suppose I would learn after a few days of eating bugs off the walls,,hahaha...I dont mind a resonable "gift" at all, Im the first to really appreciate what you get for it in return..... My friend who owns a furniture factory ( not on bali) has been paying the military for years, about $100 a month, but its money well spent as they regularly check up on her, and once during a bad time they came and got her in armored carrier and took her to the airport for her safety,,,,,, Fantastic! Now who do I have to pay to put in a casino!????/
BaliLife
Well if you figure how to get a casino established froggy, count me in!
The big boys are trying. My mother in law went to school with Peter Sondakh (I think that's how you spell it) - I heard his group is trying to get one established..
Ct
SG
[quote]My friend who owns a furniture factory ( not on bali) has been paying the military for years, about $100 a month,[/quote]
We do business with a fairly large factory in West Java and have got to know the (Chinese) family who own it quite well. They pay $1000 a month to the army for protection.
The other night driving home we were behind a police car. One of the roads to our house goes past a fairly well known house of ill repute. The police car stopped three times in about 30 metres and guys came out with with fairly fat envelopes. I don't think there was Nasi Campur in them.
