milan
I'm Indonesian and I pay left and right whenever I'm back in Jakarta. It's part of the culture and I don't mind it at all. In my cases, I always pre-empted by giving them something before they ask. That's the Indonesian way.
[quote]I don't think there was Nasi Campur in them.
[/quote]
That's funny, SG!
SG
[quote=milan]I'm Indonesian and I pay left and right whenever I'm back in Jakarta. It's part of the culture and I don't mind it at all. In my cases, I always pre-empted by giving them something before they ask. That's the Indonesian way.
[/quote]
From my experience I think a lot of the younger generation may disagree that it's the Indonesian way. Certainly paying protection money to anyone, let alone those who are tasked to uphold law and order should not be the way of any nation. And paying 'fees' to customs agents filters all the way down.
From personal knowledge it certainly used to be the way in large parts of Australia but thankfully as a nation they moved on and Australian law enforcement is quite a different beast to that which existed even 20 years ago. Things do and can change..and I think they will here.
A large part of the Reformasi exhibition I enjoyed so much in Jkt a week or two back was centred around the national need to say no to this sort of thing in the future and I'm guessing the KPK may say it's not the Indonesian way. I'm also guessing that a lot of those saying 'that's the way it is' are those who have benefited in some way (and I'm not implying anyone here has or is).
I find corruption at any level appalling and quite distasteful and make it a personal policy to avoid the hand out whenever I can. Not only is it simply dishonest and encourages a culture of dishonesty but accepting corrupt practices at any level simply nods an ok to it as a practice. You either attempt to apply the rule of law or your society eventually ceases to function.
Ok, off my high horse, but I have to say that pretty much all my Indonesian friends agree with this. They hate and are embarrassed by the corruption in this country and the terrible international reputation Indonesia, including Bali, has for corruption and dishonesty. Just because it exists doesn't make it right....anywhere in the world.
milan
I couldn't agree more with you, SG.
But sometimes, you just have to join them in order not to stick out like a sore thumb and create even more troubles.
Reformasi is being implemented by stages but it takes time. Sometimes the progress lasted only temporarily and went back to its old ways again. That's how it is and I don't have the time and willpower to fight it as I'm a pragmatist ---knowing that most of these people do not have a decent salary nor pension.
A little something to give is good for the soul as well and it's a win-win situation although frustrating on our parts who are not in the habit of practising this coming from the rich and developed nations such as Europe, Australia and US.
BaliLife
I believe it's still the way of present day indonesia. I don't know any indonesian my age who's embarrassed by it. Then again, my circles are in Surabaya and apparently Surabayans are more old school than their fellow Jakarta piers. But I really find it difficult to imagine a young indonesian who is genuinely ashamed of corruption? It may sound politically correct for them to suggest they are. When we talk about it here, it's never passing judgement on the morale of corruption, it's usually just a story about who you had to pay and what you got. It's very 'matter of fact' like in conversation and the only question is, did it benefit you or was the amount too high. The KPK are seen as a pain in the backside by Indonesians I know.. I've never heard one of them praise KPK, or their current crusade against corruption.. They usually use the term "mbencekno KPK itu", which means - the KPK are annoying - or I hate the KPK (but not exactly).. "mbencekno" is javanese and it is the word "benci" is derived from, which means "hate" - like I said, it's an extremely strong form of 'annoying'.. But their reference to KPK is just because at the moment, it's making it harder to get certain things done.. But the view is that it is cyclical, and that "this too will pass"..
Good or bad? It's good for business and at least in Surabaya, (and I'd also suggest in Bali), it is still the way of the world..
Ct
milan
[quote]When we talk about it here, it's never passing judgement on the morale of corruption, it's usually just a story about who you had to pay and what you got. It's very 'matter of fact' like in conversation and the only question is, did it benefit you or was the amount too high.[/quote]
That's quite true. And in my case in Jakarta, we don't even mention about it as it is already implicit among us/a given fact.
Sumatra
After living in the USA for a while and seeing what's going on in the US, I must say that the corruption in Bali can't be compared to the USA, don't get me wrong I realize there is corruption in bali. However, it can't hold a candle to the corruption I've witnessed here.
Corruption is institutionalized here in the USA, we call it law.
BaliLife
[quote=Sumatra]After living in the USA for a while and seeing what's going on in the US, I must say that the corruption in Bali can't be compared to the USA, don't get me wrong I realize there is corruption in bali. However, it can't hold a candle to the corruption I've witnessed here.
Corruption is institutionalized here in the USA, we call it law.[/quote]
:) that's debatable.. yes there are laws in the US that are inequitable, but overall, day to day life of people does not involve corruption on a direct level.. this argument has been had before..
so sorry, while i agree, i also disagree..
froggy
Well if anyone can get an english copy of the sweepstakes laws and if they are applicable, we can do it legaly, its kinda lengthy to put into words here, but I am running a operation here in Texas that is just that, swepstakes are any thing you win with purchase of a product, under a coke cap, peel off sticker on a soda, or french fry box etc... the sweepstake entry is free with purchase,,,, my product is internet time and you get your entries on a card , you swipe the card on a computer and thenyou reveal your prize if any in an entertaining style manner (ie ,,slot machine lookinug device) I have 15 games on every computer, keno, poker, 8 liners... trust me its really legal, and playes just like a slot machine , but with a 19' computer screen and mouse..... all u need is a copy of the gambling laws, and sweepstakes laws.... if any company in indonesia gives out cash prizes in any form with thier products more than likely , I am legal... here you can win 1 million dollars in the mc donalds sweepstakes game..... I can explain and send case law from here ( this system has already been deemed legal in a court of law, here) send me a pm with your regular email... I am contacting dasha also ,as 90% of austrailians gamble!! yee-haw Btw, singapore has finally seen the light and is building a few casinos...
froggy
In the U.S only the super wealthy are into corruption, In Bali , I feel like the super wealthy! Paying off a small resonable bribe for no drivers lic. or for a visa gives me a feeling that my little bit of money is important to someone!,,, hahaha...
tintin
Sumatera,
[quote]However, it can't hold a candle to the corruption I've witnessed here.[/quote]
Come on [b]Sumatra[/b], you must be joking? I would be curious to hear some examples of the corruption you have personally witnessed here, in the USA. :roll:
SG
[quote=Sumatra]
Corruption is institutionalized here in the USA, we call it law.[/quote]
Therefore by definition it is not corruption
SG
[quote=BaliLife]I believe it's still the way of present day indonesia. I don't know any indonesian my age who's embarrassed by it. Then again, my circles are in Surabaya and apparently Surabayans are more old school than their fellow Jakarta piers. But I really find it difficult to imagine a young indonesian who is genuinely ashamed of corruption? It may sound politically correct for them to suggest they are. When we talk about it here, it's never passing judgement on the morale of corruption, it's usually just a story about who you had to pay and what you got. It's very 'matter of fact' like in conversation and the only question is, did it benefit you or was the amount too high. The KPK are seen as a pain in the backside by Indonesians I know.. I've never heard one of them praise KPK, or their current crusade against corruption.. They usually use the term "mbencekno KPK itu", which means - the KPK are annoying - or I hate the KPK (but not exactly).. "mbencekno" is javanese and it is the word "benci" is derived from, which means "hate" - like I said, it's an extremely strong form of 'annoying'.. But their reference to KPK is just because at the moment, it's making it harder to get certain things done.. But the view is that it is cyclical, and that "this too will pass"..
Good or bad? It's good for business and at least in Surabaya, (and I'd also suggest in Bali), it is still the way of the world..
Ct[/quote]
That may be your experience BaliLife but it certainly doesn't come close to mine. Most younger (under 30) Indonesians I know and talk with are profoundly embarrassed by corruption and very supportive of the KPK. One only needs to read the press coming out of Jakarta too to realise that there is a whole new sub-generation who are wanting to say no.
The KPK crackdowns of the Attorney General's office, Supreme Court, and Customs have huge popular support. I've encountered the same in Jogja and other parts of Central Java. A friend of mine a few weeks back was saying that many of his friends feel empowered by the work of the KPK.
I suggest that if you do get to Jakarta, go to that Reformasi exhibition in the Jakarta museum (hosted by the city government), look at the queues and look at their faces..these are normal everyday people who are angry and hopeful.
I suspect those you are mixing with may be more old school than you think as polling has shown a high level of support for the KPK's work across Indonesia.
chickchili
Well the company I work for who have large mining concerns in Indonesia would screamingly disagree with the suggestion that corruption here is an urban myth. The difference now may be that It appears to have become less organised and so becomes less reliable and more difficult to work with. In the past it was fairly open and transparent so deals could be both made and enforced. Recently it seems that you never know who is going to pop up and demand money or favour and what was once a system which the mining companies were happy to work with because it suited their own ends is now becoming so unpredictable that smaller operations are becoming untenable.
Roy
An interesting conversation, and hopefully appreciated that 15 years ago could not take place here. Maybe that alone is a sign of improvement.
It has always seemed ironic to me that those most embroiled in complaining about corruption are all too often those most caught up in it. Shakespeare, Hamlet, “the lady doth protest too much.” :wink:
BaliLife
SG, I'm going to try not to dance around words here - and this is not to suggest anyone is more important than another, but it is the reality of power in indonesia..
I profess, my circles are chinese indonesians, generally business owners, etc. I maintain, I know not a single indonesian soul who is ashamed of corruption. I assume the indonesians you make reference to are not business owners, are of mediocre income and probably are educated - that is a great base for reform, BUT, that same group unfortunately holds next to no power and in present day indonesia is only able to have a very temporary affect. 95% of indonesias economy and wealth is controlled by 5% of the population, and that 5% are chinese. Bakrie is the first to buck this trend now ranking as one of the richest indonesians, but this is probably more related to the position in office he holds.. he's also the head of welfare, (and owner of LapIndo, responsible for displacing 10's of 1000's of people in Porong, Java) - which is kind of comical..
But again the determination of indonesia's destiny is still not with those you've identified, not yet anyhow..
Ct
SG
[quote=BaliLife]SG, I'm going to try not to dance around words here - and this is not to suggest anyone is more important than another, but it is the reality of power in indonesia..
I profess, my circles are chinese indonesians, generally business owners, etc. I maintain, I know not a single indonesian soul who is ashamed of corruption. I assume the indonesians you make reference to are not business owners, are of mediocre income and probably are educated - that is a great base for reform, BUT, that same group unfortunately holds next to no power and in present day indonesia is only able to have a very temporary affect. 95% of indonesias economy and wealth is controlled by 5% of the population, and that 5% are chinese. Bakrie is the first to buck this trend now ranking as one of the richest indonesians, but this is probably more related to the position in office he holds.. he's also the head of welfare, (and owner of LapIndo, responsible for displacing 10's of 1000's of people in Porong, Java) - which is kind of comical..
But again the determination of indonesia's destiny is still not with those you've identified, not yet anyhow..
Ct[/quote]
You seem to making some broad assumptions. My circles too tend to be business owners, many very very successful (and include Chinese-Indonesians...I've been having this same discussion with the son of an extraordinarily successful manufacturing family who is now being groomed for the reigns..one of the 5% you talk of, in his case maybe the top 2%). Indeed I've found that the Chinese businesspeople I know are amongst the most pro-active in wanting to change things..a thriving healthy economy is beneficial. The most reactive and resistant are the old school Indonesian power elite and that is where the KPK is targeting..witness the 5 legislators arrested so far this year.
There is also a great deal more to power in Indonesia than just money.
BaliLife
:-) that's nice, but it's far from the reality of the overall nation. And I further suggest that if your friend is in the top 2% it's impossible that the family has / does refute corruption in practice and not partake in such at some level.
Yes, power exists outside of money in Indonesia, but even that power is largely aquirable with money (and yes, chinese indonesian money).
Let's stick to referencing how things actually are as fact, not what they might be, 20 years from now, and I stress 'might'. Things don't change that quickly - Suharto has only been gone a decade and his family still has a huge amount of power in Indonesia. The culture that Suharto established, largely lives on in practice. SBY is a good friend of people we know well - very close family friends.. and like in the US, they're supported in their quests to get into office and after getting into office continue to help those who helped them.. Care to suggest how that's changing or how it will change anytime soon?
Ct
SG
[quote=Roy]An interesting conversation, and hopefully appreciated that 15 years ago could not take place here. Maybe that alone is a sign of improvement.[/quote]
Agreed Roy, that alone speaks volumes. Even little things, like the move to clean up the SIM process in Jakarta and now in Bali, which seems to be having a positive effect.
SG
With respect, I'm not sure how making a point and then moving the goalposts of your point when the arguments don't stack up is really getting you anywhere, BaliLife.
It was you that said that the 5% holds the power and suggested that I wasn't aware of how they are thinking. When I provided an argument otherwise you counter it by saying "I know someone who knows SBY"....cool..so do I..so what...he has people helping him into office...so what, we all know that. We are all aware of the neoptism and the corruption at almost every level but that is the point, there is a momentum for change in parts of the power structure, and much of that momentum comes from a realisation amongst the younger members of the monied manufacturing elite that things have to change. A big part of that is China... Indonesian manufacturing has suffered and is suffering very badly from China and other Asian nations who do it better, faster, cheaper and more efficiently..
I myself know of a large number of customers who will no longer purchase from corrupt, inefficient Indonesia. One huge European retail chain recently pulled all its manufacturing beyond sampling from Indonesia. One of the world's biggest handbag firms did the same last year. That hurts and drives change.
It's no argument to say that is the way it was in the past so that is the way it will perhaps always be, which now seems to be your drift. Of course all large firms in Indonesia have operated within the system to become what they are but that doesn't mean that there isn't an understand and a desire to change amongst many. In the same way large environmental friendly plants are being built by firms in Bandung as I type, where dirty polluting behemoths stood until recently. This country, despite the wishes and grumbling of many of the old guard, is changing...it might take a generation or two (that was my point too earlier) but it will come. It's either that or die.
You are in Surabaya, it used to be one of the twenty busiest ports in the world in Tonage..it's not in the top 50 now.
As you say, money speaks.
BaliLife
[quote]With respect, I'm not sure how making a point and then moving the goalposts of your point when the arguments don't stack up is really getting you anywhere, BaliLife.[/quote]
I don't even know what you're referring to SG? Which goal posts have I moved? Which points didn't stack up? I again maintain, if you are surrounded by people ashamed of corruption and trying to drive positive change here, you're friends with middle income students and no-one else. Respectfully.
By the sounds of it your knowlegde of how Chinese Indonesians think is very misguided - and I'd suggest meeting them in a business environment won't really teach you much as they're not exactly going to pour their hearts out to you there.
I live in their houses and have lunch and dinner with them every day of the week - property developers, owners of coffee companies, textile manufacturers, peanut plantation owners, owners of malls, banks and hotels - these are my in-laws business partners (my in-laws run a construction group), clients and almost always friends. They own businesses and real estate around the world and they are amongst those that control indonesia.
Most importantly, they don't care about politics, corruption or the state of the nation, so long as it doesn't effect their businesses.
Ct
