SG
[quote=BaliLife][quote]With respect, I'm not sure how making a point and then moving the goalposts of your point when the arguments don't stack up is really getting you anywhere, BaliLife.[/quote]
I don't even know what you're referring to SG? Which goal posts have I moved? Which points didn't stack up? I again maintain, if you are surrounded by people ashamed of corruption and trying to drive positive change here, you're friends with middle income students and no-one else. Respectfully.
By the sounds of it your knowlegde of how Chinese Indonesians think is very misguided - and I'd suggest meeting them in a business environment won't really teach you much as they're not exactly going to pour their hearts out to you there.
I live in their houses and have lunch and dinner with them every day of the week - property developers, owners of coffee companies, textile manufacturers, peanut plantation owners, owners of malls, banks and hotels - these are my in-laws business partners (my in-laws run a construction group), clients and almost always friends. They own businesses and real estate around the world and they are amongst those that control indonesia.
Most importantly, they don't care about politics, corruption or the state of the nation, so long as it doesn't effect their businesses.
Ct[/quote]
Wow, I didn't really understand how important you really are BaliLife. I'll make sure I let my friends, and fairly regular business associates, who too have property around the world, educate their children in Switzerland and have a dollar or two to rub together how wrong they all are..how they are not 'real' Chinese-Indonesians.
Gosh, I'm humbled in your presence and your ability to speak for the whole Chinese business community...en mass.
milan
I know and even have been involved with many Indonesian-Chinese be it business or personal as I have a lot of affinity with them. But in Jakarta. Don't know about Bali. As I say and I'd say again. It is inherent in our system and noone talks or even raises the subject anymore. It's a given!! It's like eating and drinking.
Maybe less than in the past. But it still exists and it's no big deal for us.
BaliLife
My point is, you made a statement about indonesians being ashamed of corruption. I think that's false. I then pointed out that 90% of the indonesians I know and deal with are chinese indonesians and that they definitely didn't feel any shame about corruption. Milan then said her circles of associates also didn't feel shamed by it. What afterall do they have to be ashamed about? It's a system they live within and have to make the most of? You then said, no, no, your circle too includes chinese indonesians and that they were also embarrassed.. Again, I don't believe it and that's based on the fact that after 9 years and having met hundreds upon hundreds of chinese indonesians where these types of things are discussed, I have never, not once heard one say that they were embarrassed by corruption. I don't think you're lying, I think you're just gullible on the subject, and a bit of an idealist. Plus it sounds like you know one chinese indonesian, who doesn't mind pissing in your ear.
Does anyone else have any experiences they can add? Do you know indonesians (pribumi and/or chinese indonesians) who are genuinely embarrassed / ashamed of the corruption in indonesia?
Ct
Roy
[quote]“Chinese Indonesians... they own businesses and real estate around the world and they are amongst those that control Indonesia.”[/quote]
There is undeniable reality and truth in that statement. “Amongst” is the operative word right now here in Bali...for now anyway. Truth be told, we’ve been looking for a good Mandarin tutor for our boys for a while now...just to keep their options open later on.
[quote]“Most importantly, they don't care about politics, corruption or the state of the nation, so long as it doesn't effect their businesses.”[/quote]
No argument from me on that either in so far as things as they used to be. But, I agree with Simon that change seems imminent and it can already be seen.
The issue you are raising BaliLife, specifically concerning Indo/Chinese, is one of great sensitivity in Indonesia, and in particular, Java. One does not have to look that far back, in fact, just to the later 1990’s, during the “financial crisis” to gain an understanding of how Indo/Chinese were targeted, causing many to flee Jakarta. Many others that were targeted, died. There are several other historical accounts of this “purging” in Java, (for lack of a better word) that went on in centuries past, and all the way back to the 16th century. And then of course, there was the huge Chinese (communist) scare which resulted in nothing less than genocide.
Simon writes,
[quote] “Indeed I've found that the Chinese businesspeople I know are amongst the most pro-active in wanting to change things.”[/quote]
I don't have very many Indo/Chinese in my business circle, but I sense what he writes among those few that I have known for a long time. I also sense their hesitation, fear, and their keen understanding that sometimes it is best to stay off the radar.
Ironically, the influence of China on Indonesia has far deeper historical roots than either Islam, Hinduism, or Christianity. Personally, I hope that what SG has been seeing as change continues.
BaliLife
Roy, you make some very good points and references.
If anyone is interested in reading more about Chinese Indonesians, a very comprehensive account and history is available on Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Indonesian
My wife was somewhat humbled when she read this article a year or so ago. You see, many Chinese Indonesians believe that hard work on their part and hard work alone propelled them into a generally higher economic status over generations. In truth, as this article suggests, it's likely much more related to the way in which the Dutch used Chinese as well as a ban that was put on Chinese Indonesians, preventing them from working in government, which forced them into more lucrative private enterprise.
Ct
milan
[quote]One does not have to look that far back, in fact, just to the later 1990’s, during the “financial crisis” to gain an understanding of how Indo/Chinese were targeted, causing many to flee Jakarta.[/quote]
And those in Jakarta fled to Singapore.
You guys both hit it right on the head with your posts. Soooo...accurate!!!
Roy
[quote]My wife was somewhat humbled when she read this article a year or so ago. You see, many Chinese Indonesians believe that hard work on their part and hard work alone propelled them into a generally higher economic status over generations. In truth, as this article suggests, it's likely much more related to the way in which the Dutch used Chinese as well as a ban that was put on Chinese Indonesians, preventing them from working in government, which forced them into more lucrative private enterprise.[/quote]
That might be a part of what happened later, but the historical record of Chinese influence in Indonesia goes way, way back, and well before the Dutch first arrived in the very late 16th century.
Serious, and meaningful Chinese influence here began during the T’ang Dynasty, or about 800 AD. It was all the result of trade...commerce, or ironically, exactly what drives us to this very day. Right outside of Yogya, in central Java is the largest Buddhist temple in the world, which dates from this same time. And by the 14th century, during the Majapahit Dynasty, (and Sung Dynasty China), there were over 5,000 Chinese residents of the Majapahit capitol city of Trowulan, and Chinese coinage became the currency of the realm. Yes, that is correct. Chinese coinage was the first official currency in present day Indonesia. Have you ever been to a Balinese ceremony and wondered why the strings of Chinese coins are present, and so important?
Just think about this! While Europe was in the early days of the Renaissance, or what the Italians call the trecento, Java, and areas around Java, (Sumatra and Malaysia) were one of the most culturally important areas of the known world. The Dutch (no offense Bert) and everyone else in northern Europe were just coming out of the “dark ages.”
So no BaliLife, the fact is, your wife, if Chinese-Indonesian should be very proud, and understand that Chinese Indonesians are at the very basic core of Indonesian history.
BaliLife
[quote=Roy]That might be a part of what happened later, but the historical record of Chinese influence in Indonesia goes way, way back, and well before the Dutch first arrived in the very late 16th century.
Serious, and meaningful Chinese influence here began during the T’ang Dynasty, or about 800 AD. It was all the result of trade...commerce, or ironically, exactly what drives us to this very day. Right outside of Yogya, in central Java is the largest Buddhist temple in the world, which dates from this same time. And by the 14th century, during the Majapahit Dynasty, (and Sung Dynasty China), there were over 5,000 Chinese residents of the Majapahit capitol city of Trowulan, and Chinese coinage became the currency of the realm. Yes, that is correct. Chinese coinage was the first official currency in present day Indonesia. Have you ever been to a Balinese ceremony and wondered why the strings of Chinese coins are present, and so important?
Just think about this! While Europe was in the early days of the Renaissance, or what the Italians call the trecento, Java, and areas around Java, (Sumatra and Malaysia) were one of the most culturally important areas of the known world. The Dutch (no offense Bert) and everyone else in northern Europe were just coming out of the “dark ages.”
So no BaliLife, the fact is, your wife, if Chinese-Indonesian should be very proud, and understand that Chinese Indonesians are at the very basic core of Indonesian history.[/quote]
that's incredible and quite new to me.. sure i've been to borobudur, but i had no idea there was such a strong, intertwined history dating back so far.. you learn something new (or in my case, many things new) every day..
ct
Roy
If your wife has long Chinese roots in Indonesia, (and it's no business of mine to know), then she should be proud, and she should consider her family heritage as being an essential core of what is Indonesia today. No living Indonesian historian or archaeologist will deny that truth today, as the old regimes are gone, and hopefully, so too, all that was part of that past.
The often cited economic disparities are true, and have been a cause of problems in the past. IMHO, I think it was a good move on your part to bring those issues up, as I can't readily recall when, if ever, they were hashed out on this forum before.
If I can just add another observation, it would be to also recognize the non Chinese history of Indonesia, and those people who are Indonesian, but without any Chinese ancestry. They are no less a part of Indonesia’s heritage. They are every bit as important to this Republic’s future, despite any economic differences categorized as wealth. Cultural wealth is not monetary. Cultural wealth transcends any denominations of currency. This Republic’s slogan is “unity in diversity.” Beyond those neat sounding words is a huge challenge, and something to truly aspire.
BaliLife
my wife's mother's side of the family has been here for countless generations - many hundreds of years. my father-in-law's side of the family is more 'totok' - his grandparents were migrants from china in the 19th century..
unfortunately assimilation between chinese indonesians and non-chinese indonesians in surabaya is quite some way behind jakarta, where friends tell me people mix much more.. well one day, hopefully not too long down the road, surabaya will follow suit..
ct
Roy
[quote]unfortunately assimilation between chinese indonesians and non-chinese indonesians in surabaya is quite some way behind jakarta, where friends tell me people mix much more.. well one day, hopefully not too long down the road, surabaya will follow suit..[/quote]
Amen to that...meaning that Surabaya (and other areas where this remains sensitive) will all hopefully follow suit...and very soon.
I really do applaud your courage for bringing this topic to a head. It has to painful for many Indo-Chinese to still deal with this, and the reality of what happened just over ten years ago.
And frankly, I don’t like the term Indo-Chinese, when the only appropriate term is Indonesian. Are there Indo-Dyaks, Indo-Torajans or Indo-Balinese?
I had to laugh though when you mentioned your wife’s family as only being here since the 19th century. And that is only because the Balinese have no sense of genealogy, or family trees.
In my wife’s family, no one knows the name of the father’s father that we all simply call Kumpi. Beyond that, he doesn’t even have a KTP, nor does anyone know how old he is. He’s the patriarch of the family, but he’s nameless! You might enjoy this photo recently taken by another forum member, Tony, from Hawaii:
BaliLife
that's a nice picture, and it is actually quite significant when i think of something i was once told..
chinese indonesians tend to be either christians (and with that i include catholics) or buddhists.. some practice islam, but in surabaya at least, such is very-very uncommon.. but i once asked a group of oms in bali if there were any (really meaning a significant number of) chinese indonesians in bali who practiced hindu - the group replied in a almost a synchronized fashion, "iya, banyak!".. i found that interesting..
ct
Roy
Many? I don’t know. Maybe in some areas of Bali, but certainly not Ubud. Also, keep in mind that the five major temples of Bali have an area devoted to Buddha, and it’s not uncommon, especially among higher caste Balinese to pay attention to the Buddhist part of Bali/Dharma which is Hindu, Buddhism and Animism. Historically, this can be traced to the influx of the Majapahit into Bali in the late 16th century as a direct result of the Islamic influx into Java.
Funny though, as my name is often assumed to be (and sorry to use the word again) Indo-Chinese, and as you note, Christian. There are lots of Roys in Java as you must know.
I have to admit, I do a chuckle some times when phoning various businesses, and once responding to the question asking my name, it seems to have some magical effect.
BaliLife
:?: roy gets mistaken for indo-chinese? i guess as you point out because it may sound like a christian name.. i don't actually know any roys here.. but then again it wouldn't surprise me if it were a common name here..
there are some weird things done with naming here.. my wife's second cousin's name is carter and his older brother's name is nixon.. i said to my wife when she first introduced me to them, "was it too late to change the name? after the impeachment mean.." referring to the elder brother's name.. (ok-ok, i know he wasn't impeached, but he would've been).. anyhow, turns out the older brother was born in 1976 - 2 years after the whole ordeal.. can you imagine, naming your kid after a disgraced president? i'm sure it was due to political ignorance - but here's an idea, if you don't follow politics, don't name your kid after a bloody president!
[i]i'm happy for the moment, federer just took the 3rd in a tie-break!![/i]
ct
milan
Roy is a Menadonese name and so it is associated with Christianity. The Menadonese are considered the Westerners of Indonesia due to our free-spiritedness, sense of humour, love of fun, Christian religion and our openess. Therefore, names are mostly taken from America, Dutch and English. It's ironic that not many names are Spanish or Portuguesse, in spite of past occupiers from these countries in Minahasa.
In Jakarta, many adopted/opted for Menadonese names even if they are from other parts of Indonesia or other religions. It's considered "cool" and with humility I'd say: sophisticated.
There was an actor called Roy Martin in the past and he is a Menadonese. I'm not familiar with today's artists though.
Balilife, you mentioned Peter Sondakh. He is Menadonese.
Ex-Pres. Suharto's daughter-in-law is a Menadonese.
Tommy Suharto's ex-girlfriend was a Menadonese and used to come to my house in Jakarta with her mother some years ago.
In California and the rest of America, there is a large community of Menadonese. Many of them either have become American citizens or still returns to Menado every so often and invest in real estates in Menado. Thus for my comment on how a Casino could be a profitable business to open there --- as strategy wise it's near the Philippines as well.
Menadonese names are: Aimee, Brenda, John, Tommy (Suharto's son and he is Javanese), Harry, Henry, Shirley, Ronny/ie, Ronald, Rex, Liz, Marla, Micky, Clara, Ine, Irene, Lannie, and all the rest.
Then there are also names taken from a combination of the parents names as well. In other words, we're not bound by traditions.
We're spontaneous, hot and just lofe to enjoy life.
As for Carter and Nixon. It is not out of ignorance but it's more out of the absence of malice. I know Indonesian people and I'm more than 100 % sure of that, believe me.
SG
[quote]“Amongst” is the operative word right now here in Bali[/quote]
BaliLife, Roy hits the nail on the head rather well.
My Chinese-Indonesian friends and associates (and you'll note I'm using the plural not the singular) clearly represent a voice in this country that you seem to be missing, and it's a voice that is trying to come to terms with the changes that are clearly evident.
You may mix with a power-elite, and that is all well and good but it's also perhaps largely irrelevant. If history shows us one thing it's that elites are often humbled by those below them, or perceived as below them. The beginnings of the thing they call Reformasi are indicative of that here but the past centuries are littered with examples around the world.
There is a very clear devolution' of power in this country..it's in its very early days but it's begun and things like the raising of youth literacy to the 99% level (from it's 80% fifteen years back), the massive project to put high speed internet into every village and direct elections are going to play a big part as does the rise of China taking tradition Indonesian markets and forcing economic change.
I see Indonesia as a little like the UK circa 1830, a time when the traditional elites still held great, almost overwhelming, political, miltary and financial power..some 2% or less controlled the nation. Industrialisation, the move of population to urban centres, communications, and many many external factors changed the balance within a century. The Reform Act of 1832 was the beginnings of a long devolution of power that led to something that was unthinkable, a Labour government and the eventual removal of that elite from the direct control of nation-politik. Many of the moneyed elite (and it didn't matter how many banks or railways they owned) kept their financial power but lost their political stranglehold.
Indonesia is classed by the UN as a developing country, and so it is. The 'developing' started in 1945 and has staggered a lot over the past decades but its started to come out the otherside. many Indonesians, especially the younger educated generations have grasped that, and grasped that it's within reach. Development involves political as well as economic maturity.
Perhaps we move in different circles and I'm hearing the voices of embarrassment that you are not. Perhaps we read different newspapers but witness the merchants organisation in Jepara who have got together to refuse to pay customs 'fees'; or the speeches given at big pop / rock concerts in Jakarta encouraging kids not to pay the police; The cleaning up of the SIM process in Jkt; Or that much visited Reformasi exhibtion I mentioned before. There is a great of anger, embarrassment and frustration at corruption. You say those people don't matter (which was what I meant about shifting the goalposts)...I think you'll be surprised how fast they matter.
If you don't think there is real, and positive change happening (and at quite a pace), I don't think you are looking.
milan
It's encouraging to know that the younger generations are making a great effort in bringing changes or reformasi to the country's imbedded corruption system which has been going on for decades from the high-end of our society to below. I salute those who go against the grain and fight to abolish it altogether. But in the meantime, the custom of greasing elbows exist and IS a part of the culture in Indonesia, thus, the motto that goes "what's impossible, it's possible" which advantages the majority of Indonesian people in general and foreigners as well.
It takes time and it will eventually reach that common noble goal one day. But that one day is still to come. When? Sooner than it ever was as I'm an optimist. However, I need to add that this attempt has been put into action years ago by ways of stricter rules and regulations on bribery. Has it disappeared? I wouldn't know as I haven't been living in Indonesia for years but on my visit to Jakarta one and a half years ago. It was still the same old ways.
BaliLife
SG - I don't think we disagree on too much, or at least there's not too much in that last post of yours that I disagree with. I don't think those beating on the table now, demanding better from the government are unimportant - like I said I think they're a great reform base.
I think really what we disagree on is at what stage present day indonesia is in this political evolution that needs to take place and who are the drivers of it. There's a term used by many people I know, and funny enough I've forgotten the term, but they always say it when we drive into areas (malls, hotels, airports) where they 'check' to ensure your not bringing in explosives, etc. The term they use, and usually say while chuckling refers to the "appearance of seeming secure", when in reality - as I'm sure most will notice, those security checkpoints check very little. They're there so the owners of those malls, etc can say, "look, we have people checking", but they're actually not looking beyond the front bumper. As an example, I drove into the mall parkade today, with 3 large cartons, taped and sealed.. They open the door, "permisi pak?" - they ask, "iya silakan" I respond, they look in the car, without looking, if you cathch my drift. After a split second, they tell me to go ahead. My point is not to tell you about my parkade experience, but it's to tell you about this practice of throwing water on a fire with one hand and fuel on it with the other.. The idea, is to just show people you're throwing water on it - and not let them see what's in your other hand.. I really regret not having that saying in my mind at the moment, because it speaks volumes..
Anyhow, regardless of where we see indonesia today - we do share a common hope, and that is that the indonesia of tomorrow be better than the indonesia of today.
Ct
Sumatra
TinTin/SG,
Sorry for the late reply. Are you familiar with Big Dig Project in Boston, MA? EVERYONE from the Governor right on down to the lowliest dirt shoveler was part and party to the corruption. None of the guilty apex predators will ever be brought to justice because they were well hidden behind a wall of bottom feeding scapegoats, whom they readily sacrificed.
Through the complacency of "we the people" legislators have been allowed to artfully weave corruption intricately into the very fabric of law.
The term Homeowner in the US is a misnomer. "We the people" never truly own our homes (unless of course, you happen to be in a desirable tax bracket) until we're too old to take care of or, enjoy them. We've been reduced to the status of squatter's on bank or government property, the cost of mortgages, property taxes and utilities have been so grossly over-inflated we're merely lifetime caretakers of someone else's land.
Conditional, local bribery or "gift giving" to the occasional Indonesian official is Childs play compared the suffering we must endure on a daily basis here in the states.
We never own the vehicles we drive either, until they become junk thanks to planned obsolescence. Driving is a privilege as explained in the RMV handbook and a quite expensive one to boot. The high cost of payments, insurance, repairs, excise tax and of course fuel is quickly forcing a great many persons back onto bicycles and foot. Do you understand were I'm going with the "institutionalized corruption" remark now? Just because the government has cleverly disguised bribery in the garb of law doesn't make it any less bribery, they simply coerce and intimidate the citizenry to pay up or suffer the consequences and it's all perfectly legal.
We're trying to sell the house and land we're taking care of right now. Before we do anything else though, I have to pay off the local Fire Dept. to inspect the house, I have to pay off the Board of Health to inspect the septic system, I have to pay them a separate fee for a well certificate. We're paying over $2,000 a year in property taxes. You'd think this inspection fee schedule would be part of the ridiculous amount I'm already paying but it's not and if I don't pay up, I'll never move this place. This is a whole lot worse than bribery, it's unarmed robbery and as I stated previously, it's all perfectly legal. So, you can keep on crowing about Indonesian bribery because it can't hold a candle to the institutionalized crimes masquerading as law perpetrated against every US citizen, every day of the week.
Soon to be smiling on the beach in Bali,
BaliLife
I am sure that any homeowner that saw their equity grow when home prices doubled, was happy. Why would somebody being happy as a result of equity growth need to be considered an idiot? Those that took on too much debt at the peak may be considered foolish. But it sounds as though you're just against free markets alltogether.
Ct
