colorful
Very interesting discussion...
I'm certainly not an expert in corruption, but would like to throw my two cents in anyway...
Sumatra, I have heard several people claim that corruption is bad in Indonesia, but that it is really no better in Western countries. Personally, I don't think your argument about fees and taxes makes a lot of sense. (by the way I'm a US citizen who lived there for 27 years). I'm sure there is corruption in the US, but from what I hear, and from what I'm reading in this post, it can in no way be compared to what is in Indonesia.
An 8% interest rate is corruption? Personally I think US citizens way overextend themselves, and take on a lot of debt. I think if a person in the US bought a reasonably priced home, worked regularly, and saved their money they could probably quite easily pay off their mortgage in 10 years. Another scenario: buy a house, then when the price appreciates, sell it and buy another house at the original price, thereby reducing the size of the mortgage.
Re: fees, all of this is fully accounted for and feeds into the public budget. It should be used to pay for the cost of doing business. When I'm in the US I often feel that there is a tendency to overlegislate and require licenses for everything. But then, take fishing licenses for example. The money for the licenses feeds into the bureau responsible for fishing and helps defray their costs.
Re: corruption in Indonesia- Corruption generally favors the wealthy and the powerful, so it wouldnt surprise me that they are not ashamed of it (BaliLife), and even complain about the KPK. Who is it that gets those extra contracts when there is no transparent bidding, or because they have a friend in the Ministry? Its not the up and coming business that is seeking to expand, it's the one that is already wealthy, that has the contacts.
In fact, one of the very reasons why Chinese have such control over the economy in Indonesia may be because of corruption.
And when money is siphoned off the health budget, or the infrastructure budget, who pays, and who benefits? Its the person who has access to the money, and siphons it off, who benefits. And the public, which has less healthcare or poor roads, suffers.
When fees are above the board, and there is transparency, then it can be discussed publicly as a part of policy. When there is corruption, it is hidden and cannot be discussed except in the vague sense.
If officials are poorly paid, let them get a salary raise, and then eliminate the corruption. Better yet, take the power away from the "guy who has the signature", and redistribute the money he was stealing to all of those people working for him, by giving them a salary raise.
Its a vaguely formulated concept in my mind, but it seems like corruption actually hinders the development of a country. It increases the transaction costs, and siphons money away from true production into paying for villas for the high level officials. This money would have been better spent being re-invested into real productive economic activity. And it seems that eliminating corruption would level the playing field in business- when the fees to undertake economic activity are standardized, small and medium sized enterprises have a chance to make it in business. But if its all based on contacts and hidden bribes, then they don't have as much chance- and they don't know if they are paying more or less than the "other guy" who has known "the Minister" for 25 years.
Re: "That's just the way it works here". Well, it probably shouldn't work that way. I think there's a fair argument to say that it is harmful. Why do people continue to pay? Well, probably because they have little choice.
Corruption and justice: Example 1: Its supposed to be free to get an ID card in one's new residence when a person moves to a new locality. But many never get one because of corruption- requests for 3-500,000 for an ID. The result? The migrant can't vote unless they return to their original residence (often a great distance to travel, and probably more expensive than paying for the ID).
Example 2: A nightclub in Bali violates the labor law. The victim considers filing a complaint, but is told by the nightclub management that they will just pay the judge, and the victim has no chance to win. As a result, the victim, believing in the presence of corruption in Indonesia, gives up. Is that justice?
Well, just food for thought...
Sumatra
[quote=colorful]Very interesting discussion...
I'm certainly not an expert in corruption, but would like to throw my two cents in anyway...
[/quote]I'm sure there is corruption in the US, but from what I hear, and from what I'm reading in this post, it can in no way be compared to what is in Indonesia.[/quote]
[/quote]Re: corruption in Indonesia- Corruption generally favors the wealthy and the powerful, so it wouldnt surprise me that they are not ashamed of it (BaliLife), and even complain about the KPK. Who is it that gets those extra contracts when there is no transparent bidding, or because they have a friend in the Ministry? Its not the up and coming business that is seeking to expand, it's the one that is already wealthy, that has the contacts.[quote]
[/quote]If officials are poorly paid, let them get a salary raise, and then eliminate the corruption. Better yet, take the power away from the "guy who has the signature", and redistribute the money he was stealing to all of those people working for him, by giving them a salary raise.[quote]
You're right colorful, US corruption is incomparable to Indonesian corruption. Indonesian corruption is crude and disorganized. Corruption in the US conversely is extremely organized, with a level of sophistication that can only be described as scientific. It's like comparing an H&K 10mm pistol to a 2x4 with nails sticking out of it.
You're also right about the wealthy. Wealth gives one a thick insulating layer of protection that allows them to prance around with selective eyesight not truly seeing what is actually before them. What tax brackets have you settled within colorful?
Redistribution? You're kidding right? That's when the wealthy steal from the middle class and give to the poor. Liberal hogwash. Are you sure you've been in the US for 27 years? 8)
Don
ronb
[quote=colorful]Very interesting discussion...
Sumatra, I have heard several people claim that corruption is bad in Indonesia, but that it is really no better in Western countries. Personally, I don't think your argument about fees and taxes makes a lot of sense. (by the way I'm a US citizen who lived there for 27 years). I'm sure there is corruption in the US, but from what I hear, and from what I'm reading in this post, it can in no way be compared to what is in Indonesia.
[/quote]
When contrasting perceptons of corruption in Indoneisa with that in Western countires, I am reminded of some thoughts from John Steinbeck in [i]The Log from the Sea of Cortez[/i]. He was writing about a sea voyage to Mexico in the early 1940's and the corruption there. He wrote:
[quote]We find we like this cash-and-carry bribery as compared to our own system of credits. With us, no bargain is struck, no price is named, nothing is clear. We go to a friend who knows a judge. The judge knows a senator who has the ear of the awarder of contracts. And eventually, we sell five carloads of lumber. But the process has only begun. Every member of the chain is tied to every other. Ten years later the son of the awarder of contracts must be appointed to Annapolis. The senator must have traffic tickets fixed for many years to come. The judge has political lien on your friend, and your friend taxes you indefinitely with friends who need jobs. It would be simplest and quicker to go to the awarder of contracts, give him one-quarter the price of the lumber, and get it over with. But that is dishonest, that is a bribe. Everyone in the credit chain eventually hates and fears everyone else. But the bribe-bargain, having no enforcing mechanism, promotes mutual respect and genuine liking. If the acceptor of the bribe cheats you, you will not go to him again, and he will soon have to leave the public service. But if he fulfills his contract, you have a new friend whom you can trust.[/quote]
I think he looks at the Mexican bribery through rose-tinted glasses - but his view of how it worked back then in the US is interesting.
