chilli
Tina.
In your posts, you refer to your fiance' as your finance.. LOL
colorful
Well in my experience it is very common for Islam to demand that the non- muslim partner convert- usually by the family of the Muslim partner. It seems to be more common in Islam although I may be totally wrong about that. No doubt the issue of religion can be a sticking point in a large number of cases (as can ethnicity).
Malaysia has a law which says that any non- Muslim (i.e. Hindu or Christian) who wants to marry a muslim must convert to Islam, which I find to be very objectionable.
So if it is a law as Tina says, then it is a human rights violation of freedom of religion, and I think it should be challenged and reported in Indonesia's mandatory reporting on its implementation of human rights covenants.
Ipanema
Hi Colorful
I am marrying an Indonesian who is Muslim. He was quite happy to marry in Australia if I did not want to change my religion. As I have no religion I have no problem with changing. In Australia my brother in law (now) had to change religion to marry my sister when she was catholic. Also recently friends got married and if they wanted to marry in a catholic church the non catholic partner had to go through six weeks or so of classes.
I suppose it depends on each person and what religion means to them. At no stage did I feel I had to change to Islam but I do want to get married in Indonesia so his family can attend.
BaliLife
Hi Tina,
I eat my own words. It is idiotic and typical of a country that makes it's citizens record their religion on an I'd card.
Policies such as these make me despise religions, their establishments and their leaders even more, which I didn't think was possible given my current level of contempt for them.
Ct
goldminer
I am married to an Indonesian muslim. As i am not religous, I had no problem converting to Islam so we could be married in Indonesia. I attended the KUA, office of religious affairs in my wifes area, Bintaro. After an hour, i walked away a muslim, allowing us to marry a week later. We were married in the same building, across the road from a mosque btw, by the head of the KUA. They were very helpful, although a" fee "was paid, normal to all, including locals, however i guess mine was a bit higher than normal. All very simple and legal.
Roy
This has become a very interesting discussion. Even more applaudable is that it remains sans divisiveness.
I’ve been to several mixed marriages where the foreigner has opted to convert to Islam (in order to get married) and that “conversion” was always a ceremony by the Imam just before the actual wedding ceremony took place. Incidentally, that is also true for the many (including my own) weddings to a Balinese-Hindu, except that it was a high priest who conducted the “conversion” which was more a birth to proper age ceremony. I’ve never attended a wedding in a mosque in Bali, but I don’t find that would be so unusual, especially among the moderate Islamists that represent the vast majority of Islam in Indonesia.
I’ve heard that in Bali anyway, it is no problem, as Freo explained, for women to enter and pray in a mosque so long as it is properly done, and attired, and from what I’ve also heard, she is correct in that the women pray in the back...presumably for the very good reason Freo offered.
With all due respects Milan, it is my understanding that Islam in Makassar is more traditional (can’t think of a better word), than in many other places in Indonesia. There are many understandable and historical reasons for this. It would not surprise me at all that women are not allowed into mosques there, or are also not allowed to be married inside a mosque.
My “hat is off” to you FreoGirl for taking your conversion more seriously than just an inconvenient compliance to a bureaucratic requirement needed to achieve the desired goal...that being marriage.
colorful
Tina, in your case it may not be a violation of freedom of religion (I thought you said you are a Buddhist?) since you say that you dont mind converting. Another forum poster said the same. But what about people who really dont want to convert? In that case it is a violation of freedom of religion. I see no reason why people who are of two different religions shouldn't be able to marry.
I was not trying to apply this to your particular case but just as a general statement.
Ipanema
[quote=Roy]This has become a very interesting discussion. Even more applaudable is that it remains sans divisiveness.
With all due respects Milan, it is my understanding that Islam in Makassar is more traditional (can’t think of a better word), than in many other places in Indonesia. There are many understandable and historical reasons for this. It would not surprise me at all that women are not allowed into mosques there, or are also not allowed to be married inside a mosque.
[/quote]
Roy
You may not have read my post on another thread but I will be getting married in a mosque in Makassar and all my Australian friends are welcome. Some will even wear traditional dress and my niece will buy material in Makassar and get something made in Makassar before the wedding.
Tina
milan
Yes, I concede that Freogirl is right not only on the marriage rites being done in the Mosque but that women are allowed to enter.
However, I'm not speaking from Makassar's law as frankly, I don't know. I just wrote based on the experiences I have had with all my Muslim friends and relatives.
Having lived in Jakarta and have a family there as well as Bandung (who are Molems), I have never heard any of them took their marriage vows/ceremonies in the mosque.
Also this talks about how one is obliged to confirm, I disagree. As I have already written in my past post that I have an Italian friend (obviously Catholic and who comes from a very important family lineage in North Italy, sorry, I have to reserve on my description of them here as one never know) who's married to a Javanese (also from an excellent lineage and a Moslem), they remain to this day upholding each of their respective religion.
And I repeat, it is also in my own family. My father Menadonese who's Protestant by birth and coverted to Bahaii in later years, and mother who's Gorontalo and Muslim by birth. Each retains their own religion while us the children have never been thrusted upon choosing which one as we grew up celebrating Lebaran every day but were educated in Catholic schools and were allowed to go to Sunday schools. No problem there and I must say that my parents raised us all well.
Roy
Tina, I did miss that point, and I'm sorry for missing it. :oops:
Roy
[quote]There is something special about sharing that part of your life with your life partner.[/quote]
That is so very, very true!
You also wrote,
[quote]“So, my experience is that what works is that when you live in a village, you are the same religion as most of the others in your village.”[/quote]
That is also, very, very true. When other than Balinese Indonesians come to Bali for a period of work, they often congregate in the same areas. The same goes for Balinese who live in other parts of Indonesia...and this is especially seen in Lombok and areas of eastern Java.
Roy
BaliLife, I “hear” you loud and clear, and to some degree, I even understand your outrage, BUT, the reality is, one never hears complaints about this from Indonesians who plan to marry other Indonesians. I expect that there are exceptions, but, personally, I’ve never heard of any.
What FreoGirl is describing, and I agree with her 100%, this is more a cultural thing, than a religious thing. It’s actually very practical in many ways.
If you really think that this is such a gross violation of human rights, don’t you think it should be up to Indonesians to make their voices heard, and change the law?
Personally, I'll take the laws passed by the MPR in Jakarta most any day over the Draconian "people control" laws of Singapore.
FreoGirl
Colourful, I wonder if you have lived in Indonesia? If you have, surely you have noticed how religion is so much a part of every day life, as natural as eating and bathing. In the west, more often than not, religion is almost 'separate' from our lives. In Indonesia it is not separate, it is as important as work, play, or any activity we do. Religion forms most of the community life in Indonesia.
So, my experience is that what works is that when you live in a village, you are the same religion as most of the others in your village. I fully understand why Indonesia passed the marriage law. I think it would be very difficult if say a wife was Hindu and husband Muslim, or visa versa. The practicalities of ceremonies and duties at the temple/mosque would be disharmonious, to say the least.
There must be a reason why a country with a population of over 200 million people are quite accepting of the marriage law. Seen from outside, maybe it looks strange, but internally it works very well.
Roy, thanks for your comments. I was going to write something along the lines of suggesting that a conversion to any religion could be taken more seriously. There is something special about sharing that part of your life with your life partner.
Ipanema
Thanks FreoGirl,
Could not have explained it better myself and I did try late last night but thought I would sleep on it.
To make a long story short Islam is part of my fiance life ingrained and it is apart of who he is without it he would be a different person. He believes in his religion 100%, I have seen this with my own eyes and I do not believe in any particular religion. Don't get me wrong I do have my beliefs but I would not put it under any one religion.
Indonesians are very tolerent people, so much more than I have experienced here in Australia and after reading as many books as I could get my hands on I now have an understanding of a religion that once scared me.
His whole family accept me for who I am and in my discussions with them about our marriage I feel they are fantastic (could not find another word suitable). Anyway do not want to go into it too much just to say I am happy and proud even to convert to Islam.
BaliLife
Freogirl wrote:
[quote]I fully understand why Indonesia passed the marriage law. I think it would be very difficult if say a wife was Hindu and husband Muslim, or visa versa.[/quote]
Surely this should be one's personal choice and not be dictated to them by a group of schmucks that couldn't run a primary school canteen - yes, I'm talking about the Indonesian parliament!
Anybody who subscribes to this belief is not entitled to suggest that Singapore is a 'controlling' state or a 'fascist' state (not saying you've indicated that Freogirl, but others have). This is a blatant breach of human rights but more importantly, it's an insult to the intelligence of the average indonesian. I suspect, SBY would have such a policy in his sights for revocation.
I don't respect religious beliefs. In fact as an atheist I think that an adult practicising religion is as rediculous as an adult believing that Snow White actually sat down with 7 dwarfs before being poisened by the wicked witch. But, I do respect peoples right to believe in whatever it is they wish to believe in and practice whatever religion they wish to - this law clearly shows that until now the Indonesian government has not believed in those rights.
Ct
BaliLife
Roy, you're very right in that I've never heard an Indonesian complain about this.
I believe it says something rather unfortunate about Indonesians, the fact that this is not problematic for them. It may also be attributed to the fact that the large large large majority of Indonesians wouldn't marry outside of their own faith anyway. Or perhaps the political intellect of Indonesia is too consumed with who should be the next president of the National Dangdut Committee.
Either way, I think it goes back to what I suggested in another thread: Democracy is dangerous in the hands of the uneducated.
Ct
Roy
Nothing much to add except to acknowledge that we have very different views on this matter. That makes for more interesting discussion any day, and on that I think we would both agree. Cheers!
BaliLife
Roy - I agree, it does make for an interesting conversation, and please don't misunderstand me - I'm not opposed to the notion of conversion in order for a married couple to share a common religion, I'm just opposed to such being required by law. I can't say I've experienced sharing a faith with my wife - but I believe freogirl's and your own viewpoint that such is a special experience.
Kadek wrote:
[quote]I think, people who are married and still maintain their respective religions can have a harmonious relationship.[/quote]
I also agree.
Ct
Kadek
[quote] Roy, you're very right in that I've never heard an Indonesian complain about this.[/quote]
Just because you have never heard an Indonesian complaint about it, doesn't mean that nobody in Indonesia care or have opionions about conversion. I for one, dislike this whole idea of conversion. In any case, who should be the one to convert anyway?
I don't know about the marriage law, as I haven't yet needed it. So I cannot comment.
As far as I know, Hinduism does not encourage or have a policy of conversion. There are many truths and many paths to internal peace, all are recognised and respected.
I think, people who are married and still maintain their respective religions can have a harmonious relationship. Respect goes both ways and sharing also goes both ways!
My uncle and aunt both still hold their respective religions - my aunt Hindu and my uncle Lutheran. Both celebrate Balinese/Hindu and Christian holidays. Having been with them here for 10 years now (although I don't live with them anymore), I have been exposed to both beliefs and also logic through science and education. Does this make me want to part with 'my' religion (or more appropriatly culture) I gained through birth or change to Christianity cause it seems simpler compared to that of Balinese or be an atheist? No, no, and no. But I have indeed learned a lot and taken lessons from them all and for that I feel richer in spirit.
If people can just have an open mind and think outside the square and restriction of religion and not be so fundamental about it, then there can indeed be harmony and this is where true tolerant exist! IMHO. But as long as people still think in the way of my religion/belief is better than yours, my religion holds the only and real truth, etc, etc. you worship idols and we worship real God, or if you believe in God then you are dump cause there is no God, then there will always be conflicts fueled by religious beliefs.
Roy
And let’s not forget the point Bert made very early on in this discussion...that being the option of a civil only marriage, which appears to be entirely legal within Indonesia.
