mimpimanis
I dont know the "facts" about converting from islam but I don know people that have done it.
I know a two young Balinese men on Lombok who married Muslim women and they converted to hindusim. Saddly to say the marriages didnt work and the women returned to their own villages.
Jimbo
I did not say it had never been done sweet dreams but Islam does not allow it. In some stricter muslim countries they have executed muslims who have done so. There was a recent article and a world wide furure about this taking place in Afghanistan.
mimpimanis
Not trying to be argumentitive JImbo.... but if Islam does not allow it how come it happens here? Legally? If I know two people you can bet there are a whole lot more in Lombok. Though in some countries they may take things to the extreme..with honour killings and the like for mixed marriages ..... it doesnt make it right or legal and thank god it isnt a major problem here. So lets not make it one.
Jimbo
Religions do not allow many things but folks brealk the rules all the time. In Islam it will depend on the interpretaion for the law. As for legal, the civil laws of a country may be different to the religious ones.
Never an arguement between us we are both far to sensible. Good lick with the car. What are you getting? That could start a whole new thread :D
milan
Would Mick Jagger and Jerry Hall ring a bell?
Their wedding in Bali was considered illegal. With Penghulu and all.
And by the way, no entry for women nor weddings being conducted in Mosques...period!
mimpimanis
Milan - yes their divorce was going through just before I was getting married... so people in Uk were worried my marriage wouldnt be legal, But of courrse we had the civil ceremony too, so it was.
Jimbo I am getting a Daihatsu Xenia - Its very reasonably priced for a larger car hence the waiting list. The dealer has two on order... I get the first one in :D I just hope its not red!
Roy
[quote]Religions do not allow many things but folks brealk the rules all the time. In Islam it will depend on the interpretaion for the law. As for legal, the civil laws of a country may be different to the religious ones.[/quote]
Uncle Jimbo, I think it is time for you to retire, and come home...Makassar, Toraja, or Lovina...it doesn't matter.
At home, you will be at peace, find some enlightenment, and maybe even live a dream. But most importantly, you will learn how to spell! :P
Anshu
The priest is called a Penghulu anyone know how to find one outside of a package deal??? Or know who to call to find one to perform the ceremony???
The wedding is June 5 :lol:
froggy
Should be as easy as getting a taxi once you are there....Taxi?Taxi?
Jimbo
[quote]Uncle Jimbo, I think it is time for you to retire, and come home...Makassar, Toraja, or Lovina...it doesn't matter.
At home, you will be at peace, find some enlightenment, and maybe even live a dream. But most importantly, you will learn how to spell![/quote]
I suffer from reverse dyslexia....... My fingers cannot keep up with my brain :D
Ipanema
I also am getting married in a Mosque in Makassar and my western friends are coming. I checked with my finance last night just to make sure I did have it correct.
I agree with Freogirl, my finance would not change his religion, it is apart of who he is and I am more than happy to convert to Islam.
Ipanema
When I went to the mosque with my finance the first time I did not go in as I was not Muslim and I waited outside. This was in Bali as that is where we meet. When it was finished I saw bule women coming out of the mosque. My finance has said that he hopes I will go to mosque with him, and yes women are in the back for the very reason Freogirl said.
My finance has told me that all non muslim can come to the wedding in the mosque and they do not hear to wear scarfs, although I know some will out of respect.
When my finance was in Australia and attended the local mosque he was surpirsed by some of the customs of our Muslims. One particulary was men wearing 3/4 pants and showing their legs.
So culture, I believe has a lot to do with it.
FreoGirl
[quote=milan]
And by the way, no entry for women nor weddings being conducted in Mosques...period![/quote]
Are you are saying that women cannot enter mosques, and that weddings can't be conducted in mosques?
If so, you're wrong. I go to mosque, both in Lombok and in Australia. I was also married inside a mosque. And women and men attended, including non-muslims.
Also, I have been to other weddings in mosques, and I am a woman.
Jimbo, I'm sure you know that in Indonesia, Islam does nto take the extreme line that some places take. It is quite normal for Muslims to convert to other religions, and is an accepted practice. What I've observed is that generally the woman converts to the husband's religion as she will be living in his village and so follows his religion. Although I've also observed the muslim man converting the the wife's religion. This is all done with the acceptance of the village, the local religious leaders, and the family. It all depends I think on how devout they were to start with. My husband, for instance, would never consider converting from Islam. It is part of who he is.
Anshu, these things are normally organised through the local mosque - is your fiance living in Bali? If so, he probably goes to mosque on Fridays - can he speak to the Imam of the mosque? If not in Bali, does he have a friend in Bali that can speak on his behalf?
milan
Yes, I'm saying that, Freogirl. It's a matter of different school of thought. As far as I know and experienced - having born and lived in Makassar in a Muslim family (mom) as we celebrated Lebaran every year then, I saw no weddings nor any of the women I know ever stepped in a Mosque. Moved to London, the same. Moved back to Jakarta, none. It's rather like a weak Muslim even though it's not explicitly expressed but also for practical purpose only if must. More of an incidental case than intentional. I say this based only on what I have seen and not as an expert. One brother of mine who's Muslim went for pilgrimage ("naik haji" ) 3 times did not marry his wife in the Mosque but it was the Imam who came to conduct it at home and so the rest of all the Muslims I know be it in the family or with friends. But I'm from Jakarta so I wouldn't know how it is in Lombok and I don't think they conduct this in the Istiqlal, which is the main Mosque in Jakarta as well as Mesjid Agung, the second largest.
One brother who is a Protestant just like the rest of most of my family are, initiated the idea to have a Mosque built for my mother but in Gorontalo (North Sulawesi, above Menado) - her birth place, as a token of love from us all and which he did. The Mosque was completed in 1996. On Inauguration Day/official opening (I couldn't attend, being in Italy and all) all family flew all the way from Jakarta and Los Angeles and it was opened by an important official. On the film that was made, again, I see all women were sitting outside.
So, as I say, that's what I know and experienced and my inputs are based on that. Therefore, if you did get married in a Mosque or and see women frequent it in Lombok and Australia, well, good for you and the women! Progress can never be refuted. Hooray for that, then.
Jimbo
[quote]they find it amusing that I mix everything up..[/quote]
At home we speak Bahasa Campur also. Quite normal for us to switch from one language to another ut also to mix them up. Some words are more expressive and we use that laguage.
Funny for outsiders who do not understand.
FreoGirl
Hi Milan, well I guess that's the problem with stating something as a fact when it is more of an opinion - that's how it read anyway, and I do understand English is not your first language so maybe it was not your intention.
Islam is practiced in many different ways all over the world, just as Christianity takes various forms and rules. In Lombok women go to mosque, sometimes for jumat-an, mostly for ceremonies and instruction in the Quran. The locals love to stand around and watch me pray as it is quite a spectical for them to see a bule praying, they love to accompany me to the mosque and pray along-side me too - maybe checking up on me hehe.. The protocol is for women to stay at the rear of the mosque so they are not bottoms up to any men behind them :roll: :oops:
In Australia, women tend to have their own section, but not always. For example in one of our mosques here in Perth they use the 1st floor for women and children, and the ground floor for men. But another smaller mosque the women stay at the rear, and yet another has a screened off section for the women, as does our Dawa centre. Some women just stay on the verandah, but just a many men do the same.
My collegue who is Egyptian Australian muslim was married inside the mosque, but in western wedding attire (minus the shoes). Again, both non-muslims and muslims attended, and not all women even wore scarves (the non-muslims that is).
So many, many differences. I think some of these 'rules' are more around culture than anything else. In Australia, most muslims are arabic muslims, although 'progressive' and women are welcome in the mosque.
milan
Hi Freogirl,
Well as far as I'm concerned, it's not a common practise for women to enter or get married in mosques and just to be on the safe side for the girls who are going to get married there.
It's funny you should mention "Arabic Muslim" and "progressive" on the same sentence when in fact I've lived in Saudi Arabia too and I have never seen women enter the mosques.
They can't drive, etc. And in each house, it has 2 living rooms always; for men and for women.
So, it's based on facts, thus for my emphatic response.
And as for the English is not being my first language, you're right. I speak Indonesian, English, Italian, French - but don't ask me to speak any language proficiently as I'm all over the place in that, I get all mixed up with spellings, structure of sentences and even grammars. You wouldn't believe when I'm back in Indonesia, or talking to my own very family on the phone, they find it amusing that I mix everything up... But hey...that's me, what can I do... Something gotta give, one way or the other. I guess, that's the price you pay when you live in too many countries all your life which I'm very grateful about and would not ever want to change one bit, regardless of impairment in languages.
BaliLife
I don't think it's indonesian law - it's a matter or trying to find an establishment (I.e. A church or a mosque in indonesia) that will marry 2 people of different faiths.
Don't isolate islam in your condemnation of the conversion requirement, many catholic churches in australia demand the same.
Ct
colorful
I would like to know whether it is a law that people who marry must be of the same religion, or whether this is just a common practice, or one that is mandated by religious leaders.
If it is a law, then it is a violation of the human right of freedom of religion. I am sure Indonesia has signed one of the International Human Rights Covenants which ensures freedom of religion, and is considered an international treaty by which the Indonesian government is bound. If it is a law, someone should really challenge them on this basis.
Personally I dont think I could ever convert to Islam and I consider it totally unacceptable to demand that someone do so in order to get married. If I ever was going out with a woman whose family, for example, told me that I would have to convert to Islam to marry her, I dont think I could continue with that relationship.
Personally I would just go for the civil marriage.
As for Islam saying that you can't convert, I think its true that it really depends on the context. The case in Afghanistan was a pretty extreme case I think.
Ipanema
BaliLife
This is taken from the Australian Embassy website
Couples must be of the same religion
Under Law No.1 of 1974 concerning marriage (the ‘Marriage Law’), both parties must hold the same religion, if not, one party must convert to the other religion. Anecdotal evidence suggests that the process of converting to Islam is not a lengthy one. To start the process, speak with the Imam at the local mosque.
As you can see it is Indonesian law that couples must be of the same religion. This is also on many site regarding marriage I have seen.
