tintin
I would like to second Sanurian's and Tony's praises of Kadek's discourses about Bali and the Balinese. I have always enjoyed her presentations on any given topic. For me, they may not always present entirely new information, but there are always some new facts worth finding out. and it's always a pleasure reading these well constructed, concise presentations.
Regarding the Clans ([i]Warga[/i]). There are twenty two clans in Bali, all with something to celebrate from their glorious pasts. The largest of the clans is the Warga Pacek, to which about 60% of the Balinese belong. This can be seen in the hundreds branch Pacek clan temples spread all over Bali. Probably the best known and famous clan is the Warga Pandes, the smiths clan. But the Warga Pacek, has many responsibilities, among them the most important, which is the maintenance of four very important temples in Gelgel, Padang Bai, Amlapura, and of course Besakih.
Finally, according to some of my old notes, I would like to add, in connection with one of the latest Kadek's post (Kadek, let me know if my notes are correct)
1) [i]Dalem[/i] seems to mean "Prince" in that particular context
2) It was indeed Kresna Kapakisan's own son, Dalem Samprangan, who succeeded him, but he was rather useless as a ruler, and he was deposed by younger brother, Dalem Ketut Ngulesir who moved his capital to Gelgel.
Kadek
Just as we are on the topic of Balinese social groupings, Bert earlier gave a link to a photo of the hight priest that officiated his wedding to Dewi.
So here is another system of Balinese grouping. For sure, Balinese Hindus are known as following the Hindu Dharma religion. And within this there are several sects: Sivaite sect, Buddha sect and Waisnawa sect (follower of Wishnu) (maybe there are others, but these are the three main sects in Bali. Oh, the Buddha sect is distinct from the Buddhism as its own religion. Most people in Bali are of Sivaite sect followers.
Every Balinese Hindu family will follow their own religious sect and have loyalty to different high priests. They will only go to this specific high priest for advice and for officiating their ceremonies.
So you think all Balinese high priests are from Brahmana caste? Well think again.
So how does it work?
Sivaite followers: Sivaite High Priest called Pedanda Siva
Buddha sect: Buddhist High Priest called Pedanda Buda (this is the spelling for Buddha in Bali)
Waisnawa sect: Waisnawa High Priest called Pedanda Wishnu
These high priests all are from brahmana caste.
Sudra can also become a High Priest and he will have the title of Mpu. There were many Mpus who came to Bali from Java. I don't know if there are many at present (for example the Pande clans have their own High Priest – hmm I am not sure if their High Priests are called Mpu or Pujangga). Anybody a Pande here?
Hmm I guess not.
There are also the High Priests called Rsi. They originated from the Kesatria caste.
So how do you know which one is which High priest? Well, they have slightly different costumes and Ketus (Ketu is the head crown of a high priest as you can see in Bert’s photo). To many people, they can pick up where a high priest is from based on this.
You are right Tintin - Dalem means Prince, but I think it also describes his Kingdom. And more common now is Dalem use for Pura Dalem - which is the temple for Siva to be found in every Balinese village.
I don't know if Sri Kresna Kepakisan and Dalem Samprangan were two different things. As Kresna Kepakisan had his Kingdom based in Samprangan.
Cheers
Kadek
charlie
I'm Pande
our High priests are known as Sri Empu ...
I was given a name during my 3 month ceremony - Ni Wayan Pande Sarah Angrenni
It is what i am known as in my family and village, and what i am introduced as formally.
My brothers in law call me Wayan
My mother and father in law call me Sarah (not english Sarah - Balinese meaning)
When we pray in the temple before going on a journey my mother and father in law will pray using my Balinese name ...
It is not something i asked for as i felt i shouldn't presume to use the name that was given to me by the during the ceremony - it wasn't just picked out of a hat -but instead my family and village have used it for me ...
After so many years, it has gotten to a point where my family are asking why i don't formally change my name, and after so many years with my wonderful family it is definitely something i would now consider ...
but then we live in a backwater 3 hours from anywhere ....
Jimbo
Reading all this just makes me understand how little I know and that even after years of exposure to a culture one does not understand it.
Well done all posters for a great topic.
DCC
Thorsten & Tony
Different strokes, I know. I do admire wit, passion, & productivity and MJ has them in spades. I just tire of the LOOK AT ME some artists/artisans front. Work speaks for itself. I said his gardens were fine and honestly gd's not my background so I could be a little harsh - but I do know architectural design, and when it's mediocre - Ordinary: not extraordinary; not special, exceptional, or great; of medium quality.
I'm more a fan of John Pettigrew.
Dyah
very nice and interesting thread. I always like to know about meaning of the name(s)... what is behind one name or the habit, or name regulation from different culturs or regions.
I found nice site:
http://www.behindthename.com/glossary/view/language
I think ... Kadek can write for this site about name from balinese language... :-)
About name(s) i have always problems with my large name... it´s too long, that in every country on my trips, i need "more time" to discuss about my name with the immigrations-personal by my arrival in the airport.
Than in the indonesian passport you can not find very clear: Firstname and Familyname...
but rather just: Fullname.
Also i have problems with my Fullname name: Dyah Sri Ayoe Rachmayani Narang-Huth... :(
I like my names, and they have very good meaning... Nice gift from my parents and grandparents but sometimes i would like to take just one from my first name and than my familyname.
Salam,
Dyah
tintin
Hi Kadek,
It's not of great importance, but I think you would appreciate my little "Googling" on this particular point: Ida I Dewa Samprangan. The info. can be found in the book "The People of Bali," by Angela Hobart, Urs Ramseyer, and Albert Leerman, (2001). They get their info. from the [i]Babab Dalem[/i] (you are obviously correct when you stated earlier that, in this particular case, [i]Dalem[/i] seems to refer to the kinship rather than to the title of "Prince.").
Dalem Ketur Krishna Kaparisan established his court in Samprangan, in 1352. Upon his death, he was succeeded by his eldest son, Ida I Dewa Samprangan. But history has him as a dandy and cuckhold, and he was soon deposed. His younger brother, Ida I Dewa Ketut Ngulesir, took over and founded the Gelgel Dynasty.
Roy
Hey Jimbo, I’m in the same boat! But I take some solace in the fact that so are many Balinese.
An earlier point I alluded to, when I asked Kadek...
[quote]“Seriously speaking, how many (as a percentage) of Balinese...your “normal everyday” Sudra caste...like Eri for example, do you think could explain all of what you wrote here without consulting a book or an elder?”[/quote]
...has not been touched on.
Kadek is of course, NOT representative of your “normal everyday average Sudra caste Balinese.” Not by a long shot.
What I know to be fact...a part of everyday life here in Bali, is the need for many Balinese, (dare I say the majority?) to consult with high priests, balians, holy men, or even ladies of higher caste, (especially when unusual offering are needed), on almost a daily basis. Anyone who thinks that your “average” Balinese can just pick up an old lontar, and read and understand it...well, they are very mistaken.
The reality here is that for the Balinese, the old caste system, while not anywhere near in play as it used to be, is still reflected by what the Balinese know, or don’t know. This has historical roots, and not surprising when considering the realities of the past Bali Aga traditions, or the resulting changes in Bali with the influx of the Majapahit influence.
The point is, the Sudra caste were simply NOT educated at the levels enjoyed by the highest castes. Not even as far back as fifty years ago, it would have been near impossible to find a Sudra caste Balinese who could speak, or understand high bahasa Balinese. The old caste system, being devised with control much in mind, kept the secrets of knowledge much under their own umbrella.
I think this point is necessary, because given the excellent explanations given by Kadek, a misconception that “any Balinese” could come up with that same explanation without consulting a book, an elder or etc., is at the least, unrealistic.
Another point that I wish Kadek would elaborate on, based on her knowledge, is the variations of understanding, traditions, ceremonies, and even timing of ceremonies that can be found all over Bali. This is a point that Fred Eiseman makes VERY clear in his book, Sekala & Niskala. While in general, there seems to be greater conformance than differences, sometimes the differences can be rather dramatic, as when Galungan (the highest holy time in Bali) is recognized in Singaraja, and when that same time is celebrated elsewhere in Bali.
All of this of course only adds to what is already a very complex ikat of what is Balinese culture. This also means something else, that being that for most Balinese, what they know and what they practice day to day is largely the result of their own upbringing and education as formed within their own village. A really frank conversation between Dewi, (Bert’s wife), my wife, and Kadek would produce some very interesting variations and points of view. Of course, the foundation, the essence of Hindu/Dharma, would be unquestionably mutually shared. Even among the high priests within Bali there are many variations and differences.
Jimbo, even if we spent our entire lives in total devotion and immersion in learning all of these aspects, nuances, subtleties, and variations, we would still have much more to learn. For me, it’s just when I think I may know something that I get reminded of how much more there is to learn. That’s just one of the many appeals of Bali...so much to learn, and so little time to learn it.
Thorsten
Hi Roy,
to tell you the truth, Kadek had the intention to answer your question, though I told her the question was probably more rhetorical.
You are of course right with your estimation that the majority of Balinese wouldn’t be able to explain these things and also that Kadek is not representative in respect to this – her solid knowledge is based on three points, firstly – since her childhood she was introduced to this and taught by her parents, secondly - she intensive studied Balinese culture and she can be a really nerd in this case, thirdly – she doesn’t rely on descriptions written by foreigners about Balinese culture or religion (although she was reading this all too of course), she is part of this culture and it’s her court, she is able to read and understand the original manuscripts, writings and she is able to put these into the right context.
[quote] Jimbo, even if we spent our entire lives in total devotion and immersion in learning all of these aspects, nuances, subtleties, and variations, we would still have much more to learn. For me, it’s just when I think I may know something that I get reminded of how much more there is to learn. That’s just one of the many appeals of Bali...so much to learn, and so little time to learn it.[/quote]
Amen to that!
Personally, I almost think to give up here, I have the impression – the more I learn, the less I know!
At the moment Kadek studies German, I was talking German with her last night on Skype and it is absolutely incredible to see the progress she made in a few weeks (she just jumped over the first course), her spelling is almost perfect, her pronunciation is amazing and she is making only a few mistakes in (the very complicated) grammar.
A small anecdote:
We were in a small room/ chapel in the Palazzo Veccio (Florence) designed by Rafael.
I was talking a bit about the Medici family, Kadek was listening to me interested with eyes wide open, when I finished my explanation after 5 minutes or so – there was silence.
Perhaps 2 minutes later she raised a question in respect to my previous elaboration, she was correcting me!!!
Astonished I realised that she already has known what I tried to explain and even better than me.
I was leading her on my court and got defeated there!
Best regards
Thorsten
Kadek
[quote=Roy]Hey Jimbo, I’m in the same boat! But I take some solace in the fact that so are many Balinese.
An earlier point I alluded to, when I asked Kadek...
[quote]“Seriously speaking, how many (as a percentage) of Balinese...your “normal everyday” Sudra caste...like Eri for example, do you think could explain all of what you wrote here without consulting a book or an elder?”[/quote]
...has not been touched on.
Kadek is of course, NOT representative of your “normal everyday average Sudra caste Balinese.” Not by a long shot. [/quote]
Hi Roy,
Thanks. Just a quick reply to say that of course both you and Thorsten are right in saying that many average Balinese will not be able to explain many of the things I wrote here. However, I also do not wish to make the impression that I am an expert in this. Because I am not. Compare to the rest of the people in this Forum, I know a whole lot about Balinese customs, which is natural. But I am also still learning and there are so many things to learn about Bali.
Indeed, many people often go to people in the know for consultation. This is also how I got my information - from listening to my dad explain these kind of stories and information to people who come to him for information and guidance.
I wish I have more time for this forum, there are other topics I am interested in, but at the moment I don't have any time, so I have to be selective on which topic I should reply.
I didn't realise that doing everything all at once take a lot of time. I am working full time, doing part time study for my Master (in a completely new field of study) as well as studying German. I feel I don't even have time for my cat.
Poor thing :(
Regards
Kadek
P.S you have a very nice garden Roy :wink:
mileage
Riveting from beginning to end..... So I'll read it again.
Thorsten
[quote]Seriously, I must ask you Thorsten, are you speaking for Kadek? Or, is she free to speak for herself? Can’t Kadek figure out for herself if a question is rhetorical, or not? Does Kadek consult you before she posts here?
[/quote]
Well I think she gave you an answer, so what do you think Roy, is she able to speak for herself? :wink:
For Eri - I like her wit and her sense of humor, so I'm sending her my best regards!
Thorsten
Roy
To be totally honest, I am completely confused. Since my last post here a few days ago, Thorsten has addressed this topic, and so has Kadek.
One point of confusion is when Thorsten wrote,
[quote]“to tell you the truth, Kadek had the intention to answer your question, though I told her the question was probably more rhetorical.”[/quote]
Seriously, I must ask you Thorsten, are you speaking for Kadek? Or, is she free to speak for herself? Can’t Kadek figure out for herself if a question is rhetorical, or not? Does Kadek consult you before she posts here?
Kadek eventually answered for herself, but not before Thorsten wrote about Kadek:
[quote]“...her solid knowledge is based on three points, firstly – since her childhood she was introduced to this and taught by her parents, secondly - she intensive studied Balinese culture and she can be a really nerd in this case, thirdly – she doesn’t rely on descriptions written by foreigners about Balinese culture or religion (although she was reading this all too of course), she is part of this culture and it’s her court, she is able to read and understand the original manuscripts, writings and she is able to put these into the right context.”[/quote]
For me, and this is just my way of thinking, after nine years of marriage to an amazing Balinese woman, and raising three sons, my intimacy and deep understanding of who Eri is would never allow me to say anything along the lines of what you wrote Thorsten. At the very least, I would never be able to describe Eri, nor would I even try. But then again, that’s just me, and the way I think.
Roy
I re-read my post, and can see how it only added more to the confusion. Many apologies for that! I meant no offense in what I wrote, but I can see how offense could be taken, and again, my apologies.
Actually Kadek I did ask Eri questions several times during the development of this entire string. As for being on-line, it’s usual for me to keep a window open on Firefox to this forum at the same time I am getting work done...or trying to get work done. As the majority of our business is done on-line, that is fairly typical for me. For certain, you don’t want to take any time management lessons from me. :lol: University and the corporate culture now being all behind me, it’s nice to not have to worry about time management.
mileage
Time management in Bali must be a trial. Seeing as the island has a 'jam karet' way of life.
Kadek
[quote] To be totally honest, I am completely confused. Since my last post here a few days ago, Thorsten has addressed this topic, and so has Kadek.
One point of confusion is when Thorsten wrote,
“to tell you the truth, Kadek had the intention to answer your question, though I told her the question was probably more rhetorical.”
Seriously, I must ask you Thorsten, are you speaking for Kadek? Or, is she free to speak for herself? Can’t Kadek figure out for herself if a question is rhetorical, or not? Does Kadek consult you before she posts here? [/quote]
Roy!
Sorry that you are completely confused! I guess it is not usual for you to be confused. Well, I will try to clarify. [b]NO[/b] I don’t need to get permission or to consult with anybody when I want to speak about any topic that I find an interest to speak about in this forum or anywhere else for that matter! I am completely capable of speaking for myself. I certainly don’t need a man to lead me and guide me by the hand in this regard!
Perhaps the way you interpret Thorsten’s statement when he said ‘I told her’ that your question was rhetorical was what making you confused. I certainly didn’t ask for permission nor have I ever had nor will I ever do this regarding any topics here in this forum. Obviously, we communicate and often discuss many things together and about topics raised here that we find interesting.
So now, as it seems I need to clarify something that you find an issue with. After I posted my reply on this thread, Thorsten commented to me that he learnt a lot from the information that I posted. Which I am also glad that he has taken an interest in knowing this as well. I made a remark during this conversation that I didn’t addressed the particular question from you regarding what percentage of Balinese would know the same level of information as I do. Of course it was obvious to him and me that from many previous postings from you, me and others here that many Balinese people do consult their elders for such matters as the religious duties and customs in Bali. Thorsten at this point said that your question was probably just a rhetorical question from you to assert that fact about the nature of Balinese society, the complexity of it and the need for consultation in this regard. So to me not addressing the matter in my reply was not something that I have to give a second thought about.
I can also see that you have thrown this statement (below) in defense of yourself for not being able to properly give answer to questions that have come up in this thread and therefore you find it necessary to point out this fact to give justification/validation for your lack of understanding in this issue. I don’t know, it is only my guess. You tell me!
[quote] An earlier point I alluded to, when I asked Kadek...
“Seriously speaking, how many (as a percentage) of Balinese...your “normal everyday” Sudra caste...like Eri for example, do you think could explain all of what you wrote here without consulting a book or an elder?”
...has not been touched on. [/quote]
[quote] Kadek eventually answered for herself, but not before Thorsten wrote about Kadek: … [/quote]
Gee Roy, I am not online checking this forum 24 hours a day and I don’t need to apologise to you for giving you a late reply. So lets see, your posting that Thorsten replied to first was posted when I was still at work. I don’t surf the internet and for that matter the forum during my work hours. I am not one of those people who have too much time on their hands to twiddle around doing nothing but pretending to work.
Thosten also replied to your posting when I was still at work. So I was only aware of your posting after Thorsten has posted his reply. So I certainly wasn’t waiting for Thorsten to say something about me to give my reply to you.
Also as I mentioned I don’t have much time for forum and I don’t jump to attention to answer topics as soon as I see them. I see no rush in answering anything that is of no consequence to me – especially not questions posted by strangers in the forum. I have work deadlines and University assignments commitments that take priority before the forum.
Unlike some people here, when I say I don’t have time, I really don’t have time. How much time do you dedicate for forum and Internet Roy? Maybe I should learn a little bit about time management and organization from you!
Looking at the volume of postings you manage to generate each day, it seems you are online the most here. I am just surprised considering that you are a busy father of three with business and a life in the village, in the banjar that you are also doing. Perhaps you are not working on the 24 hours clock like me.
[quote] For me, and this is just my way of thinking, after nine years of marriage to an amazing Balinese woman, and raising three sons, my intimacy and deep understanding of who Eri is would never allow me to say anything along the lines of what you wrote Thorsten. At the very least, I would never be able to describe Eri, nor would I even try. But then again, that’s just me, and the way I think. [/quote]
Now I am confused. What are you talking about? Thorsten made an observation about me from his point of view of how my knowledge about Balinese culture has come about. I certainly didn’t ask him to describe me or to give me praises or whatever else in a forum. He has made an observation about me!
You remarked:
[quote] Kadek is of course, NOT representative of your “normal everyday average Sudra caste Balinese.” Not by a long shot. [/quote]
And from your remark above, Thorsten was indeed giving his observation of why he perhaps agreed with you that indeed in his opinion I am not a representative of the average Balinese. As a person who in this forum at least, knows me the best, he has ‘insider’ knowledge of how I got my knowledge. I don’t see why I should be concerned with regard to him sharing this observation in the forum. It is not information regarding our private life.
Now back to you. You claimed you will never be able to/will not allow yourself to describe Eri – your wife. You said this as though it is taboo to give description relating to one’s love one. You could have fooled me. You have hardly missed an opportunity to describe Eri here in this forum. There is one just here where you described her as being an ‘amazing Balinese woman’. You also spoke on her behalf when you referred to her as being part of the ‘average Balinese’ and dismissed her as probably not knowing about the kind of things that I described. She may not know everything I know or able to put it together the way I did. But people have different styles of writing and explaining things. So have you asked her if she does know what Gede, Pasek, or Wibawa means? You hardly need to go and consult a guru for this. These words are common in names in Bali, so I would be really surprised if she really doesn’t know them. Also, she would be able to tell you what her family clan/Warga/soroh is and where her clan temple is! It is rare for a family not to know this as not knowing this would mean not knowing your soul. She perhaps cannot tell you the history of it. She will also be able to tell you about the Balinese naming convention, about the family temple, and many more. For an educated person like her, she would also have learnt about the Hindu religion at school, just the same way as I did. There were many information in these school text books that are relevant all the time. So have you asked her before you dismissed her as not knowing? She might know more than what you give her credit for! And therefore, you are misrepresenting her in this case.
Well, you can always say I don’t know your wife, and this is certainly true.
One last thing, if you don’t know to ask the right questions, then you won’t get the right answers!
Anyway, enough from me here now!
Kadek
Kadek
Hi Roy,
Thanks for the PM also. Keep up your good work here in the forum.
Sorry if I had overeacted a tad.
Kadek
