Call Me What You Will

Bert Vierstra

"B'li Gede" is how they call me, Roy....... My name is Gede Pasek Wibawa. Your wife knows what it means..... Gede is not because of my size.... Dewi is a "Gelgel", so both Dewi and I have our "big" temple in Klung Klung. Forgot the name of the (High) priest, but this is him during the wedding: http://www.vierstra.com/pictures/detail ... age_id=206

nyoman kris

Roy

I was just pulling on your leg Bert! Geeez. :roll: [quote]Dewi is a "Gelgel", so both Dewi and I have our "big" temple in Klung Klung.[/quote] OK, what's a Gelgel? I only know Gelgel as a village/town, and once Javanese stronghold near Semarapura. Do you mean Dewi is from Gelgel? Eri has no idea what Gede Pasek Wibawa means, but I recognized Pasek as one of the important clans, but I have no idea of what caste. Eri has no idea what Gede Pasek Wibawa means, but I recognized Pasek as one of the important clans, but I have no idea of what caste. Are you saying that Dewi is from royal decent? Does that mean we have to call you Prince Bert from now on? :D

Bert Vierstra

Try berwibawa with Eri.... (and let her read it) Don't think Dewi is of Royal Descent..... Gelgel has been a Kingdom in Bali though.... I am not a prince, but I like "Prince Bert".

Bert Vierstra

[quote]And they don't have suitably embroidered underwear in Matahari?[/quote] No, we have it specially made 8)

nyoman kris

[quote=Bert]...Gelgel has been a Kingdom in Bali though... [/quote] Gelgel was the centre of Majapahit power in Bali from the conquest in 1343, through the flight to Bali around 1515, and until the rebellion around 1686, after which the capital was moved to Semarapura, and then Klungkung.

milan

I just entered a post here and it disappeared!

Kadek

Oh by the way, each clan has its own temple within the Besakih Temple. A clan temple within Besakih Temple is called a Pedarman. You can easily see them as each temple is surrounded by its own wall and has its own entrance. Together with the main Penataran Agung Temple, these all made up the Mother Temple of Besakih. Hmm I am only a Sudra girl, but my family Pedarman temple is the same temple as the Brahmas clan. I wonder what went wrong there. Just curious if I could change my name to Ida Ayu Kadek? :D :idea: :?: Cheers Kadek

Bert Vierstra

[quote]Wibawa is his given name, which means a person with wisdom and charisma. So how did I go translating your name Bert? :D[/quote] To me it has been translated as "To be respected" .... (sort of hormat..)

Kadek

[quote] To me it has been translated as "To be respected" .... (sort of hormat..) [/quote] Ah yes - that certainly is the literal meaning. I gave it a more Western personal characteristics/personality traits. A person who has charisma and command respects from others in Balinese are being referred to as that person being mewibawa. Or if the person is arrogant, know it all and without shame, then he/she is called as not having wibawa. anyway... fun stuff

Roy

[quote]I am a bit surprised that you don’t know what this mean Roy, considering that you seemed to have a lot of interests in Balinese ancestors and culture.[/quote] I think for a bule, I do pretty good Kadek, but as you know, my real interest with Balinese and Majaphit culture is with the arts. Seriously speaking, how many (as a percentage) of Balinese...your “normal everyday” Sudra caste...like Eri for example, do you think could explain all of what you wrote here without consulting a book or an elder? And, one thing was missing that I was hoping you would address, and that is your feelings or thoughts on Westerners taking Balinese names. As always, your posts are great fun to read. Cheers!

DCC

Roy - I started this anew because I wanted to make sure you read it.....I agree with you 100% on the name game. Adopting a Balinese name for yourself, adopting any labeled identity for the matter, is narcissistic and pretentious...at BEST! As example, you can tell Mr. Wijaya is self-obsessed by name alone and if not, go back and check his website http://www.ptwijaya.com/. The handy guy gives a few hundred self-referential links in case we missed the point. And sh-t, while on the subject I'll go on record as stating I don't find his gardens brilliant at all - they're fine. I find his 'architectural' design and products mediocre. His skill is writing. His books on architecture and gardening are entertaining and informative intros to their subject. Yet he's even more gifted at self-promo! That's what provides the resume - western clients in SEA fear making the wrong choice or being taken by locals when building here and there is a natural tendency to seek fellow westerners for any assistance, in that sense he has almost no competition in garden design. Add a catchy NAME cuz that grabs em to boot - kinda like POPO Danes who IMHO is very mediocre yet he gets press with ease.

Roy

Well done! Obviously I agree with your comments as well. Bert and Mimpi have somewhat confused the point I was making on the other string...that point being that my pet peeve is when a westerner adopts or takes on a Balinese name. Conversion to Hindu, or marriage, in the opinion of both our high priest and my Guru, is not sufficient to be given a Balinese name. So, unlike Bert and Mimpi, I was not given a Balinese name during the oton ceremonies with our high priest before our wedding ceremony commenced. As my late brother Matt commented in the film produced by Jungle Run Productions of our wedding, “that was the Reader’s Digest condensed version of Balinese birth to about age 16.” Those abbreviated multiple oton ceremonies were needed however to get me to an age old enough to marry. Hey, it felt GREAT being 16 again! :lol: I can easily understand however, that in other areas of Bali, this semi-Balinese name giving is worked into the oton and “conversion” ceremonies that precede a wedding ceremony. It is very common within Bali to find a variety in the manners certain ceremonies are conducted. My “pet peeve” isn’t about that, rather it is when a westerner just takes on a Balinese name for some other reason. And in the case you describe DCC, that would be the worse case scenario. I’d be curious who gave Bert his Balinese name. Bli is of course the Balinese equivalent of Mas, in bahasa Indonesia, which is simply a respectful way of addressing an adult male. It’s not a name, nor part of a name. Gede, on the other hand, is often used as a word, and depending on context, can mean either big, or old...which Bert qualifies in both respects. Sorry Bert! :lol: Whoever in your family that gave you your name, it sounds like they have a sense of humor. As for the rest of what you wrote DCC, I have heard those precise sentiments expressed by others in Ubud. :shock: I’ll leave it at that. Cheers!

Thorsten

Hi DCC, while I will gladly agree in respect to adopting Balinese (or any other) names as inappropriate, if not ridiculous – I feel the need to defend a colleague a bit. Every design and also garden-design leaves lot of space for arguments, personal taste and opinions will differ and individual impressions might always reflect a personal, settled point of view, [b]but[/b] if a design is good or not is not defined by personal, subjective judgement! Being a garden-designer by myself, I see the works of Made Wijaya probably with other eyes, I will sometimes have another philosophy, but never less this guy knows the job and you don’t get to these references and also not to this reputation by lack of competition or simply due to good self-promotion! You are doubtless entitled to prefer a different style, where we are back of the first sentence of my writing, but judging his design [i]mediocre[/i] is unfair and unjustified. This guy is so successful, because he is doing his job passionate, aside the technical solutions, you can see his passion by delivering perfecting into every single detail, in my point of view the details in his work are making the difference and there he is really excellent, if not brilliant! Best regards Thorsten

Bert Vierstra

[quote]Ah yes - that certainly is the literal meaning. I gave it a more Western personal characteristics/personality traits.[/quote] There goes the culture :( :mrgreen:

Kadek

Hmm… should I even try to explain what this all mean? [quote] OK, what's a Gelgel? I only know Gelgel as a village/town, and once Javanese stronghold near Semarapura. Do you mean Dewi is from Gelgel? [/quote] I am a bit surprised that you don’t know what this mean Roy, considering that you seemed to have a lot of interests in Balinese ancestors and culture. Maybe Eri was just not in the mood of explaining these things to you. :?: As I said before the Balinese social system and order are very complicated. So I will try to explain it as simple as I could for the benefit of members here. Many have known that Balinese society is divided or grouped into the different castes – Brahmana, Kesatria, Wesya and Sudra. But this system is only one, there are more. Not many foreigners will know that alongside this system, there is another system of social order which is traced by ancestors’ roots. Each clan claims higher status over the other and it is sometime really messy. One way of knowing what the true status of a Sudra family is through observing their cremation ceremonies. For example: Bendesa Gede Mas clan members (which belong to Sudra caste) are allowed to use the Bade (funeral tower) up to 7 or 9 tiers high (this is in almost equal standing to the Brahmana or Kestaria people, although they can use 9 or 11 tiers Bade). These groups as well as some others use the Cow (for female) or Bull (for male) for funeral pyres during cremation ceremonies. Other families or clans use Lion shaped (if I remember correctly a Pande clan uses a Lion shaped funeral pyre), still others of lesser standing will use sea creatures like fish, or squid or just a simple wadah (no shape, just a simple decorated box – common during communal cremation organized by the Banjar). These all signifies the status of the family in the traditional society. So back to Bert, how does Gelgel that Bert refers to fit into all these? Well Gelgel or as Balinese would refer it as Pasek Gelgel or Pasek Dalem Gelgel – in which Bert and Dewi are members, is one of the many family clans in Bali. Just briefly, there are many waves of migration from Java to Bali many centuries ago where they then mixed with the existing social order already existed in Bali. There were migrations led by priests – like Dang Hyang Nirartha (who instigated many constructions of temples in Bali) and Mpu Kuturan (who organized the religious ceremonies in Bali into what you can see today) and there are others... When General Gajah Mada came and conquered Bali in the 12th centuries (Nyoman Kris has given the year), Bali was ruled by a Bali Aga dynasty based in Bedahulu (in Pejeng - Gianyar). After Gajah Mada defeated the King of Bedahulu (some believed by trickeries), he appointed a Prince called Sri Kresna Kepakisan to rule Bali. Sometimes after the rule of Sri Kresna Kepakisan, a successor to this dynasty (I think not related) moved the centre of the Kingdom to Gelgel in Klungkung and established himself as the new King of Dalem Gelgel (I think Dalem means Kingdom). This period is known in Bali as the Gelgel Period, which ruled Bali for some generations and in which Bali reached a kind of a golden era under the rule of King Dalem Watureggong. So anyway, there are many families that traced their roots to the original families who were the followers of the two kingdoms and its Princes. Such as Dewi’s families – they were loyal to or traced their roots to the Kingdom of Gelgel and its Princes (so in reality, although may not be recently, Dewi’s families did indeed come from Gelgel – Klungkung). And so I suspect her families will still do a pilgrimage to their original (big) family temple in Gelgel or in Klungkung during the temple festival. I think I should not talk about the history of Bali, otherwise it will become too long. Anyway, so by the four castes system – Bert and Dewi are of Sudras. However, by Dewi's clan roots they are of Pasek Gelgel. Bert/Dewi’s families are not of princely origin only that they were part of the Prince of Dalem Gelgel followers or loyal subjects who may or may not have positions within the Kingdom. [quote] Eri has no idea what Gede Pasek Wibawa means, but I recognized Pasek as one of the important clans, but I have no idea of what caste.[/quote] So by Bert’s Balinese name: [b]Gede [/b] – maybe Bert is a first born (I am not sure, but I think in the north Wayan is sometime replaced only by Gede, while in the South it would be Wayan Gede) [b]Pasek[/b] indicates he is a member of the Pasek clan and in his case that of Dalem Gelgel [b]Wibawa[/b] is his given name, which means a person with wisdom and charisma. So how did I go translating your name Bert? :D Anyway, this is only a smidgen of the complexity of Balinese social groupings and orders. But I hope it has explained a little bit about Bert’s name. Oh, in my opinion if you convert to Hinduism and wish to adopt a Balinese name, then I think you can. You don’t have too. And just to clarify, Hinduism does not seek to convert people or to enforce adoption of a Hindu name or in this case Balinese naming convention. It is up to the individual’s willingness. And as for Westerners wearing Balinese traditional costumes – I have seen those that look not so good in them only because the costumes were ill fitting and not worn in the proper manner. Or maybe they just didn’t have the gracefulness of a Balinese? :wink: However, I have also seen those that look good in them. As an example, my uncle and his nephew, they are both Germans, for me there were nothing odd in the way they looked when wearing Balinese clothing. Beside, if you want to participate and enter a temple during festival (or even not during festival) you must wear traditional clothing. No exception! Well at least as far as I know. Oops too long again... hmm Markit will not like it. ok bye now... and continue..... Kadek

Kadek

[quote=charlie]I'm Pande our High priests are known as Sri Empu ... [/quote] Thanks Charlie for confirming this. Mpu is short for Empu and of course Sri is the tittle given to all revered people and gods both in Bali and India. As well in Bali means goddess Dewi Sri [quote] I was given a name during my 3 month ceremony - Ni Wayan Pande Sarah Angrenni [/quote] Nice name Charlie. I am wondering what Sarah means in Balinese? Is it short for Saraswati or variation of this?? and were you born on a Tuesday? Nice seeing you again Charlie. We need more women here in the forum. :wink: Cheers Kadek p.s must really study now :oops:

charlie

sarah (nyarah) - means to be independent - to be left free to decide for oneself ... my family find it fitting i was given this name as they always made it clear i didn't have to convert to hinduism and that i was free to decide for myself ... my "birthday" in bali is a wednesday ... we had all my ceremonies and finally the wedding ceremony on a wednesday ... and my real birth day is a monday ... so no tuesdays here .... and i must say kadek it has been wonderful to read your input.... i realise how time consuming it would be for you and really appreciate it :D !!!

Kadek

Hi Roy, As I said before, I don’t mind it when people choose to have a [b]proper[/b] Balinese name when he/she chooses to convert to Balinese Hinduism. Although, I don’t think you must do this. When a person converted, from my understanding he/she must go through all the life passage ceremonies that a person born as a Balinese Hindu must have. This process I think made that person to be considered as the same as being born as a Balinese Hindu (maybe like if they had undergone a process of Dwijati – two lives). This term is used when a Brahmana is about to be ordained into becoming a High Priest. In the process of Dwijati ceremony, the Brahmana person is considered having passed away and then reborn as a new person – that is now able to assume the holy role of a High Priest/Pedanda. But I don’t know if it is appropriate to use this to describe the process of converting and changing name. As I mentioned before, I have never witnessed a conversion ceremony. I am not sure if many Balinese would find it offensive when finding that a Westerner who had converted to Hinduism adopts a Balinese name. I once was in a Bank when I was younger, and there was this guy – a European guy, who was dressed in Balinese traditional style and spoke to the bank teller in high Balinese. I was impressed by this fact and later when this person had gone, the bank employees remarked how they were also impressed by how fluent this guy spoke in high Balinese and how he even had changed his name into Balinese. It was seen as a gesture of love for Balinese culture that this foreigner had willingly adopt a Balinese name and culture. He was referred to as Bli Ketut. I understand there are many meanings and importance attached to names. However, a name is also an identity – one of many that we are given, we create ourselves and we adopt as we grow older. I also know Balinese who have Western style names, for examples I Wayan Jonny, I Made Danny, I Nyoman Deddy Juniarwan, Ni Made Febri, Ni Putu Isabel. These given names are modern/western influenced. Hmm if I am not wrong Roy, Eri’s cousin is called I Wayan Dedik. Dedik is hardly a Balinese name/Hindu (I think it is more modern Indonesian). Am I wrong? Anyway, I sometime wish my full name is a bit simpler (not that is it complex by Balinese standard!). As the western system cannot handle Balinese name. No family name, and many words for a given name. It is very different to the normal three words names in the West. I only wish that my nieces (who all have 6 to 7 words in their names will have better luck if they decide to go overseas one day. Then there are the issues of people being given Balinese nick names. Sanurian mentioned he was once also known as Ida Bagus Kentut. I can see the humor in this and many Balinese will see the same. In fact, this is a very common statement made amongst Balinese to joke with each other. Just to give a meaning/context to this. Often Balinese would joke that a person is “Jelma sing nawang entut” [Entut being the Balinese for Kentut (Kentut is Indonesian for passing wind). This statement refers to a person who doesn’t know a thing he/she is talking about. In other occasions, people often joke and called a friend as Ida Bagus Kentut, referring to that person’s fondness in talking high philosophical stuff or giving advice for example when he doesn’t know the subject matter. Or a person is being said to have sought advice from an Ida Bagus Kentut, as the advice is useless and not worth the effort. Sorry Sanurian, I don’t know the circumstances of why you were given a nick name Ida Bagus Kentut. No offence intended to you. Anyway.. it is late now here. :shock: :oops: spending too much time in forum today Kadek

Tony

Allow me to jump in and offer a hearty round of thanks to Kadek for her most informative and interesting glimpse into her culture. It is information such as she provides that drew me into this forum in the first place. I look forward to more postings from you. You always take great care and time to share your knowledge with us. And... as she so eloquently points out, all the Balinese that I know love to joke and make word play just as she describes. Which bring's me back to DCC's post that opens this thread... While I disagree with DCC's assessment of Wijaya's design skills,both architectural & landscape (yet wholly embrace your thoughts on P. Danes), anyone who has ever met the man... or even read his "Stranger in Paradise" columns will know that, indeed, perhaps his greatest skills are his writing and most of all his talents at self-promotion. And... as is evident throughout all of his published screeds is a playfull, witty, often ascerbic but always passionate love of word play quite similar to what I have experienced among my balinese friends. Made has skillfully crafted a public persona that is totally larger than life, over the top. While I don't wish to challenge anyone's belief regarding the idea of westerners adopting Balinese names, I merely suggest that it is in the spirit of that "larger than life" persona and love of word play that Made with tongue firmly planted in cheek took his balinese moniker, which has been translated to me by my partner as meaning "winner".