MUDCRAB
Roy, you sorta answered my question some time back, you know, the one you didn't answer about being involved in community prodjects.
[quote]MY BANJAR IS! My role, (unpaid by the way) is to prepare the feasibility study, inquire about possible grant money, or funding through the World Bank, and to act a consultant. [/quote]
Now forgive me with this Oh so bad word, but doesn't a coughwhitepersoncough have a lot of sway in these meetings when talking to locals?
They do tend to look up to them as as well, you know what i mean.
Roy
MUDCRAB writes,
[quote]...you are selling out the Balinese culture from under them, no matter how fluffed and right it is made to look. [/quote]
You are so totally wrong and misinformed...but you know what? I DON’T CARE. As for your comment, “on my visit, I admired the antiques of Bali, but never would I take them out of the country because I could.”
Let me give you a “heads up.” Those “antiques” you THINK you were admiring...the odds are they weren’t even antiques! There are only a handful of dealers on Bali that sell authentic material. Didn’t you notice those “antikes made to order” signs? :shock: Whoever wrote that phrase, “ignorance is bliss” surely knew what they were talking about! :P
Fellhip writes:
[quote]Thanks Roy for this precision. I still do not understand these kind of laws who prevent any one from foreign country to put their money on a land and built a house. There must be a logic behind it but I don't get it..... [/quote]
I think the logic is to help to prevent the exploitation of Bali and the demise, not only of the Balinese culture but all the indigenous (some 400 in all) cultures that comprise Indonesia. You might note, by the way, that the voting on Ni Luh’s poll concerning this matter is almost evenly split between those who are not already living permanently in Bali (against, but with provisions for surviving non Indonesian spouses and their children), and those who are NOT living here in Bali.
What that tells me is that the expat community, to some greater degree, and due to their life experience on Bali, is far more able to understand and appreciate the need to keep Bali for the Balinese. That’s not snobbery or elitism, that’s just plain common sense.
balijeff
Uh-oh. I think I smell hypocrisy Roy.
I understand he is very concerned about Bali. And he should be. I admit I agree that the traditional Balinese way of life (whatever that is) is evaporating. Although I would say that is also inevitable...unless a culture takes extreme xenophobic and isolationist views. Failing that, you will meet different cultures and learn from them, I already posted a real short synopsis of how that happens. Anyways, back to the hypocrisy...and Roy knows it.
The retirement community. Talk about shooting yourself, and your argument, in the foot. You had, until then, consistantly maintained the moral high road: Defense of the Balinese and their way of life. You argued that selling land disassociates the Balinese from their land and eventually their own identity...obviously selling land to foreigners is not a good way to rid oneself of such an influence. Yet you also imply that the very presence of outsiders taints Bali, they take without giving - even going so far as to lament how Bali had tourism forced upon them (which contributes to the "problem" of cultural exchange).
And the solution of course is to develop river front property to encourage more corrupt tourists. You make an attempt to justify it by saying that the banjar will own the land, control the property and collect the profts...all for the monetary gain of your banjar (and, by extension, the exclusion of all others). Yikes! Hasnt your point always been that these bules are the problem? Land ownership isnt, nor has it been, the issue...its the protection of Balinese culture from outside influence (which is corrupting pure Balinese culture). And building a retirement commuity for foreigners (and their corrosive culture) is antithetical to every word you have uttered up to this point. You lament their development and cultural pillaging on one hand and invite them with the other.
I would like to ask why its ok for his banjar to develop pristine riverfront property for a retirement community but not it isnt ok for others?
Note, I dont have a problem with the retirement communtiy itself. His banjar has the right to develop as they see fit. But one cannot, with any sense of integrity, build a development and decry such at the same time.
As far as anyone who says hypocrite for selling statues...not so. He is selling relics that have been approved for sale...approved by the appropriate governing bodies. Said bodies are manned by Balinese (I sure hope so) and inasmuch the Balinese themselves have approved such sales. It is very hard, in my mind, to claim he is destroying Balinese culture by exporting artifacts the Balinese themselves have chosen to export.
Jeffrey
Roy
Jeffrey, you are way way off base, and your conclusions are entirely wrong.
First off, understand that this is banjar owned property...it is owned by the community of my banjar as a whole. Before you go judging me as a hypocrite, let me make it clear that the banjar decided by a vote of the voting banjar members to explore developing that land for the greater advantage of the community. That is their right and entirely in keeping with my own commitments to help preserve Balinese culture. To compare that with foreign development of Balinese land is simply not sound logic.
I am not building or developing this land...MY BANJAR IS! My role, (unpaid by the way) is to prepare the feasibility study, inquire about possible grant money, or funding through the World Bank, and to act a consultant.
The residents of this community will all be retires, and hold Indonesian retirement visas. They cannot, by virtue of their visas, work, run businesses, or accept income from any activities in Bali (or Indonesia as a whole).
Two schools and a medical clinic will be incorporated and built within this community. This forces integration, and makes the community in general more pleasant, but more importantly the income derived from this community will enable the children of our banjar to ALL HAVE FREE and quality educations through the senior level, as well as access to FREE MEDICAL CARE! Additionally, this community will provide many jobs, which to the extent possible will all go to the residents of our Banjar community.
I’ve never argued any point even remotely close to believing that foreign presence in and of itself is a challenge to Balinese culture...nor will you find anywhere where I have written or spoken such words. Plenty of expats in Bali live in an integrated manner within their respective banjars in just the same manner, (and with the same commitments I might add) as I do. Most all of these same expats give of their time and/or money to improve the Bali they call home for the benefit of the Balinese. They do it because they want to...nobody asked them.
You ask,
[quote]I would like to ask why its ok for his banjar to develop pristine riverfront property for a retirement community but not it isnt ok for others? [/quote]
If you can’t see the difference than too bad, but I sure do, as what my banjar wants to do falls DIRECTLY IN LINE WITH BALI FOR THE BALINESE. I cannot answer to shortcomings in your own ability to understand that VERY essential difference.
Developing just six or so hectares of our banjar land will make a huge difference in the quality of the lives of the people who live in our banjar. For me, that makes ALL the difference in the world. You can take your hypocrisy theory and stuff it my friend. I’ll leave it to you to imagine my first choice as to where you can stuff it.
MUDCRAB
Thanks for explaining Roy.
Tommy
I don't see much threat for the traditional ways of the Balinese as it's all nested with religion and everyday events. Religion/Traditions is not something taken lightly and is nothing that will be abandoned only due to a few thousand Bules living it "their" way in Bali. It sounds very self-centered to think otherwise and more like someone's just beating his drum to get heard. :shock:
Retirement community.. I'm sure the banjar will be able to invest the profit from this to the village in all it's religious, cultural and social aspects. Sounds like an excellent idea to me. It can't possibly be considered hypocrisy for bringing money to the village who can uphold and expand their desires and traditions. Jeff, it sounds like you're using alot of loose arguments just to portray Roy as a hypocrit... for reasones unknown to me. :roll:
Bert Vierstra
[b]Re: RE: Two standards?[/b]
[quote=rien.gluvers][quote=Roy]The residents of this community will all be retires, and hold Indonesian retirement visas. They cannot, by virtue of their visas, work, run businesses, or accept income from any activities in Bali (or Indonesia as a whole). [/quote]
Dear Roy, isn't this a bit naive. The most "not-owners" of businesses, trade- and export consultants I have heard of are working and making money in Bali on cultural/social or retirement visa's. I think I have even read a post of you going to Singapore for a visa extension?[/quote]
Dear Rien, as a possible future investor / business man in Bali, you are going to make yourself very popular with these remarks amongst the expat community.
And what the frick has Roy or his plans to do with this?
Lee
Balijeff,
I agree with you totally on this, I had to check to make sure it wasn’t April Fools Day it just seemed so contradictory to what Roy is always on about.
Lee
Roy
Lee, you're forgiven. I know you're just jealous this ain't going to happen on your side of the Ayung River :P
And MUDCRAB...sama, sama...you're welcome.
rien.gluvers
I am a bit sorry I started this topic because of the way the discussion is evolving. It was never meant to divide the members of the forum in a good : bad. What I hoped for was a bit of understanding for other ones opinions. I think (almost) everyone tries to do what he or she thinks is best for her/himself, his loved-ones and surroundings. But trying to create a win-win situation, not only thinking of yourself and loved-ones but also for others, that is the challenge
rien.gluvers
Roy, can you tell us something more about your plan. For instance I am very curious about the plans for the layout. What I have noticed in Bali was the custom to build walls around villa’s, houses and “compounds”. Will this also be in your plans? This is, I think, one of the most disturbing things. Because with this the enclosed land is "lost" for others. Also this custom leads to the use of more land per villa because westerners want to see free space around their houses. More houses in an open area give a more spacious look so there can be more houses on the same plot.
Bert Vierstra
Apart from the nasty remarks from all sides...
I see a difference between "progress" where the Balinese themselves are involved and keep control, and "progress" where there they loose control and future income.
As far as I can tell, Roy's Banjar will be able to get income in the future from their ricefields, either from growing rice or from growing homes for the elderly.
There is a difference between selling the land to some developer, either from an other part of Indonesia or abroad, or the Balinese "doing it" themselves.
Roy
Rien writes:
[quote]Dear Roy, isn't this a bit naive. The most "not-owners" of businesses, trade- and export consultants I have heard of are working and making money in Bali on cultural/social or retirement visa's. I think I have even read a post of you going to Singapore for a visa extension?[/quote]
Naïve? Absolutely not! With all due respects Rien, you have a great deal to learn about successful expat living in Bali...which, once you are here, hopefully that will happen. The fact is, anyone caught working or otherwise violating their visa status is subject to deportation, and believe me, it happens with regularity. Even running an "innocent" internet business from one’s home in Bali while on a 421 (social/cultural) or any non business visa is a violation of that visa.
Trust me. The Intel department of Polda has a file on EVERY expat on Bali...I kid you not. Expat activities are monitored to various degrees, depending on various factors, and that is not to mention that some expats have been known to “turn in” other expats for visa violations out of spite, or to settle some sort of previous and unrelated “score.”
You further write, “I think I have even read a post of you going to Singapore for a visa extension?” No Rien, you did not ever read that. I have not been to Singapore for over six years. I go to Bangkok to renew my visa when it is time to do so. I also take that opportunity to go to Bumrungrad for medical/dental check ups.
You should be careful about jumping to conclusions and publicly posting mis-information about expats. As Bert points out, such activity will not make you popular among the expat community, should in fact you ever move here.
MUDCRAB, I don’t recall any past question from you regarding my personal involvement in community projects. I must have missed it. Anyway, you also demonstrate a real lack of understanding of the Balinese people by writing:
[quote]Now forgive me with this Oh so bad word, but doesn't a coughwhitepersoncough have a lot of sway in these meetings when talking to locals? They do tend to look up to them as as well, you know what i mean.[/quote]
Yes, I know what you are inferring, and if you really believe that, then by your own words you too are showing that you need to learn a lot about the Balinese as well. This is perfectly understandable as this kind of knowledge only comes from years of living with the Balinese. The perceptions that tourists get of the Balinese is ENTIRELY different than the reality. It’s easy for a tourist, even a many times to Bali tourist, to form your misconception. To the tourist, the Balinese seem extremely humble, if not down right supplicant to the “Tamu” hanging on their every word.
Once you have lived here for a time, you will quickly learn that the Balinese are an immensely proud people, quite capable of taking care of themselves, and often could care less of the opinions of the “bule.”
While I attend banjar meetings from time to time, I never address the banjar, (nor do I vote, as once previously mentioned). Again, if you knew the Balinese, then you would understand the need to save face. For me to publicly address the banjar, and offer some plausible solutions, or suggestions would be very embarrassing to the banjar leadership. Such ideas are expected to come from the banjar leadership itself, not me. As such, the banjar leadership discuss such ideas in private meetings with me, and the leadership, if they like the idea, will raise it at the meetings...AS THEIR IDEA. That is normal, and that is SO BALINESE.
I have known many expats over the years who moved to Bali with the expectations that their experiences as a tourist were going to be essentially the same once living here, and on a grander scale. Those that continued to hold onto this misconception and unrealistic expectation are no longer here. The attrition rate among expats in their first three years is very high once the euphoria of moving to Bali wears off, and the realities set in.
Tommy
[quote]There is a difference between selling the land to some developer, either from an other part of Indonesia or abroad, or the Balinese "doing it" themselves.[/quote]
Yup that's pretty much what i said 20 or so posts before they went at each other like knife-armed roosters. :shock:
I still belive as i said before that.. Quote Myself: :lol: :lol: :lol:
[quote]I'm sure the banjar will be able to invest the profit from this to the village in all it's religious, cultural and social aspects. Sounds like an excellent idea to me. It can't possibly be considered hypocrisy for bringing money to the village who can uphold and expand their desires and traditions.[/quote]
Bert Vierstra
All ok,
But.....
Very few Balinese are actually involved in "residential" project management, aimed at the "foreign market", as far as I can tell.
balijeff
First, I must apologize for misunderstanding and/or jumping to conclusions. When you posted that you were working on a project with your banjar I assumed, incorrectly, that you were driving the project. For that, I apologize.
However, you have, in fact, blamed outside influence for detroying Bali, both in a cultural and developmental sense.
[quote]The second greatest threat to Bali, as I see it, is to her culture. Most Balinese that I know are far more worried about this issue than anything else. As more and more Balinese sell, sell, sell, more foreigners buy, buy, buy, and Bali erodes into just another tropical vacation spot…sometimes with “authentic Balinese dance.” [/quote]
And again...
[quote]It is NOT acceptable for westerners to not take responsibility for the state that Bali currently finds herself in. The Balinese have NOT brought this about, and clearly, had there never been any western influence in Bali, this whole issue would be 100% mute and without doubt, the Balinese would be just fine![/quote]
Third time's a charm...
[quote]The nightmare of Bali eventually evolving into a Disney Land concept playground and housing facility makes me puke. This is already happening in areas like Kuta, Legian, Sanur, and Seminyak. In particular, Seminyak has metamorphosed in just the last few years into something completely unrecognizable just four years ago. Has this change really helped Bali or its people? I think not.[/quote]
Note: all of those were taken from "Challenges for Bali" thread.
The hypocrisy, as I see it, stems from this: You have, in fact, blamed outside influence on ruining Bali. In fact, you trace it back all the way to Dutch Colonial times as the starting point. You do, as indicated above, malign development, witness the third quote. In fact, you rarely miss the opportunity to malign Kuta, both for its wanton development and loss of traditional Balinese values.
And then you support your banjar in importing more of the same. The same development which you claim leads to loss of culture (which is true if you ask me). I cannot reconcile the two. How can one use the defense, its my banjar doing it so its ok and turn around and blame other Balinese (in Kuta et al) for doing the same?
The issue is, I think, about ruining pure Bali. Either it is developed into "Disney Land" and/or the traditional way of life is lost. Roy has repeatedly blamed foreigners and finds it absurd that the Balinese did it to themselves (a paraphrase from Challenges in Bali). How can one maintain that and then turn around and support the same from his banjar?
Jeffrey
Roy
Lee, as a quick follow up, and a serious one at that, I was surprised by your comment. East Bali, along with other areas of Bali, could really use some innovative approaches to help alleviate the abject poverty that abounds there...all the while preserving Balinese culture. So, aside from a glib comment about April Fool’s Day, how about you share with us some more in-depth ideas of substance rather than humorous folly.
So, Lee, what’s going on in your “neck of the woods” and what are your ideas to improve the status quo? In all honesty, I have not been able to keep up with the East Bali Poverty Project. Are they making a marked difference from your point of view? I noted, when visiting there a little more than a month ago that the corn harvest was virtually cooked by the dry season’s sun. What impact is this having on the ability of already “stretched to the limit” folks in East Bali having?
I truly hope that you would agree with me that there is much, much to do, and furthermore, I also hope that you don’t really believe that assisting a banjar, to find its way to total self-reliance is a bad thing or inconsistent with my ideology.
We all can get lost here in time, days, and months, but no Lee, it is not April Fool’s Day.
Roy
OK Jeffrey, let’s attempt to dissect these issues in more detail, and take them one at a time for the mutual advantage of understanding each other.
First off, no need to apologize for misunderstandings. On forums, it’s impossible to not have plenty of them...it’s the nature of a forum...people who have never met discussing topical issues. Personally, I’ve given up making apologies as A) they take up too much time, B) the Balinese don’t, so why should I? and C) I could care less about being politically correct, and I think the Dale Carnige (sp?) course, “how to win friends and influence people” is a latrine of BS.
Yes, I have blamed outside influence for having a very destructive impact on Bali, as the three quotes you offered illustrate. As an aside, I have here to fore only really addressed the impact from an economic basis, not even addressing yet the social scourges of Western influence, such as drugs. We should save that one for another time, don’t you think?
You write:
[quote]You have, in fact, blamed outside influence on ruining Bali. In fact, you trace it back all the way to Dutch Colonial times as the starting point. You do, as indicated above, malign development, witness the third quote. In fact, you rarely miss the opportunity to malign Kuta, both for its wanton development and loss of traditional Balinese values.[/quote]
That’s a correct assessment, and so I agree...totally, and likely I could not sum it up better than you have except that I would qualify the word “development.”
But then you write:
[quote]And then you support your banjar in importing more of the same. The same development which you claim leads to loss of culture (which is true if you ask me). I cannot reconcile the two. How can one use the defense, its my banjar doing it so its ok and turn around and blame other Balinese (in Kuta et al) for doing the same?[/quote]
In those words are found the basis of my total disagreement with you that ANY hypocrisy exists. I am NOT supporting my banjar in what you call “importing more of the same.” My banjar isn’t “importing” a bloody thing! What will be done in my banjar is to absorb within their community a community of retired persons, multi-national, which has its own merits. Ideally, the exchange between those who are Balinese within the banjar, and those who are retired bule within the same banjar, will be on the best of levels, those humanistic exchanges that do not destroy cultures, but rather enables them both and make them both stronger.
It’s ironic that I’m having a far more difficult time getting this concept across to another Westerner than I did the Balinese of my banjar. They embrace this concept very much, and they look forward to sharing their banjar with Tamu who are as eager to share their lives and culture with them.
Jeffrey, there will be NO comparison to what is being conceived here in my banjar to ANYTHING in Kuta or other parts of southern Bali. You seem to think in “black and white.” You write, “either it is developed into "Disney Land" and/or the traditional way of life is lost.” That is just NOT the case, and thousands of expats before me have proven that assimilation of Westerners into Bali is very achievable without ANY loss to Balinese culture, in fact, quite the opposite.
For an example, take the great Western artists starting with Maurice Sterne, who arrived in 1912, go through the Pita Maha period...Hofker, Spies, Bonnet, Le Mayeur, and continue the journey up to this day. Did they change the course of Balinese traditional art? No, rather, what they did was to open up other avenues of artistic expression through other styles of painting. They were not destroyers of cultures, rather they were contributors.
Even more essential to understand is that the Balinese embraced this new knowledge, discarding along the way what they chose to discard. There are still plenty of excellent artists in Bali, painting today exactly in the style and manner their ancestors did, well before those Western artists were even born. And, there are great Balinese artists today who work in the contemporary style, and they chose to express themselves, and their culture, in a contemporary venue.
You are “missing the boat” Jeffrey, you really are, but that’s OK. Finding passage on the boat I metaphorically refer to is not easy, nor in fact do most expats manage to get their ticket punched. The fact is, I fully expect that very few folks reading what I chose to write on this forum have any inkling of what I am talking about. And that is OK too.
Ask yourself a simple question. How many long term expats on Bali are regular, or even periodic contributors to this forum? Bert could answer this, but my guess is that they could be numbered by the fingers on one hand. Bert knows that I frequently cajole other expats I know to participate here. The reasons run the gauntlet of “I have no computer, or electricity for that matter”....(Victor Mason)....to, “I just don’t have the time.” But when pressed for the real answer, it is always some sort of paraphrasing of this: “When they have sobered up from the intoxicating effects of Bali, I’d be happy to talk to them.”
My own personal success in acclimating and assimilating into a Balinese existence has nothing at all to do with me. I had a great advantage. One was the advice and input of my “brother” Matt, a second was the spiritual guidance of my Guru, Om Tony, and most significant, the influence, love, and with the patience of Job...my Balinese wife and her entire family.
Without that considerable support, I know in my heart fully well that attempting this on my own...well, I would have just been another one ebbing with the tide.
balijeff
oops, I missed a word....in point one, it sohuld read 99 year lease...left out the word 'lease'...
Roy
What’s the point Jeff in my wasting my time responding to your diatribe? I’ve already made my points and clearly they just go in one ear, and out the other. :roll:
