Two standards?

rien.gluvers

I think some people are measuring by two standards as an when they see fit to their own purposes. Roy for instance never gives up his plea for keeping the Balinese land to the Balinese. The same Roy however is selling antiques and art to foreigners abroad as I am informed well. In many countries s.a. Egypt and Greece for instance this is a form of business that is strictly forbidden because they think of it as steeling the history from its people. This however is never discussed here.

JAMIE

Them is fighten words ...( only kidding ) , I feel there is a differance between land ownership rights and the people who fights for those rights in Bali and selling of the local art / antiquities (sic) . I own a couple Bali / bornio textiles , and i tresure them . If it comes to a point where the Bali government stops the exporting of the "arts" people will then change there mindset on art export . trust me when i say there isnt a huge demand for Bali art in the NYC area and if there was that would only help the people of Bali not hurt them . The best measure of a man is a ruler !

Bert Vierstra

What do you mean Rien? The selling of artifacts in general from Bali / Indonesia (or anywhere else) to other countries, or the fact that Roy is involved in Indonesian antiques?

rien.gluvers

What I mean is that people that want to protect the heritage of the Balinese not only have to pay attention to the land. The land, even when it is sold, stays in Bali and laws can protect teh land against misuse. Antiquities sold to foreign countries however are lost to the Balinese forever.

Bert Vierstra

[quote]Rien, I find your comments, coming from a Dutchman, to be very ironic. Why? Just check the many museums in Holland that are full of pilfered artifacts from Indonesia during the over three hundred years of colonial occupation. Would you care to care to attempt to justify that? Was that any less than cultural rape?[/quote] As a Dutchman, I must say that that this was a long time ago, Roy, and I don't think Rien has anything to do with that, neither have I, besides being born in a country with a past.

Roy

I couldn't agree more Bert. I was pointing out the irony, and made it very clear that I was referring to activity that occurred during the Dutch colonial period...that's it. I might follow that up with a suggestion that if Rien is himself concerned for the preservation of Indonesian and Balinese cultural objects, he might start a petition to the several Dutch government museums that they restore to the National Museum in Jakarta at least some of the massive amounts of Indonesian cultural material they have stored in their basements, and are NEVER on public view. :x

Bert Vierstra

Ha, After I had been to Bali one or two times in 2000 or so, I went to the "Tropen Museum" in Amsterdam and saw some rebuild Asian streets there, complete with local sounds and stuff... Fun to see... Maybe we can build a musuem of the west here: A coffeeshop from Amsterdam, with longhaired smoking dolls An office in Wallstreet, computerscreens with suited dolls A Vienna bakery A Brussels chocalate shop All with dolls and local sounds... :P

rien.gluvers

[b]Re: RE: Two standards?[/b] Unfortunately I am not very concerned with preserving anything cultural whatsoever. I trust our governments to control that in the way the public wants. If a owner (private person, business or government) wants to sell and its allowed by law I personally have no problems whit it. What I think is a problem is the way people judge others. For instance the argument that the selling of antiquities when approved with the Indonesian government is ok, but buying land when approved by the same government is not, doesn’t feel good to me.

Bert Vierstra

Instead of trying to find an argument, Rien, you should talk with Roy about building homes for the elderly in Bali. Maybe you you have more in common then you think.

rien.gluvers

Maybe it seems me picking on Roy, but that isn't the way I mean it to be. For me it I just hard to imagine why people in general want to make their perception of things the only way to look at things. Is it not the possession of things then it is the way how go about with pets or how to spend your money etc etc. For me it is only interesting to know how others think about things without making speedy judgements about those opinions. About talking with Roy about the homes for elderly I sure will pick up the advice. On my itinerary I have already written Nuri's in Ubud. Isn’t it on Thursday’s?

MUDCRAB

Not on a Roy picking day but.....................I do find it ironic you jump up and down about us 'mere mortals' wanting to buy and live in Bali and have a wonderful life, and you are selling out the Balinese culture from under them, no matter how fluffed and right it is made to look. Doesn't mean it's right just because there is a certificate on it, I still think it's wrong. On my visit, I admired the antiques of Bali, but never would I take them out of the country because I could.

Feelhip

Thanks Roy for this precision. I still do not understand these kind of laws who prevent any one from foreign country to put their money on a land and built a house. There must be a logic behind it but I don't get it..... Malaysia, as far as I know has the same scheme. "Bumi reserve" they call it. If you are not Malay you cannot have access to owning a land in a particular place. If you are Malaysian national but Chineese, or Indian, it is not for you... Philippe

Roy

Yes Rien, you are absolutely correct, I indeed sell authentic antiques and artifacts, both from our gallery in Ubud and on the internet as well. I guess what you are unaware of is that these objects are all certified by the Department of Archaeology here in Bali and Java, and each is issued a photo certificate, both concerning their authenticity and also providing permission for export outside of Indonesia. Next time you are in Bali, you, (or anyone else for that matter) are welcome to stop by our gallery and examine these certificates for yourself. You have no way of knowing this, but I work quite closely with the Department of Archaeology providing them with my particular expertise in ancient Chinese ceramics. Quite a number of the ancient Chinese, Thai and Vietnamese ceramics we sell have been and still are being recovered from shipwrecks in Indonesian waters. By working closely with the Department of Archaeology, we can determine what objects are just too culturally important, (pusaka is the term), and those that can be exported. The Department of Archaeology is neither sufficiently funded, nor does it has the other resources necessary to keep virtually all objects of antiquity here in Indonesia. By allowing some amount of these artifacts to go to other museums and private collectors, in fact what happens is an increase in the awareness and appreciation of Indonesian art and culture by the people of other nations. Currently, at our gallery, one exhibition that is still in progress is an in-depth survey of shipwreck excavated Chinese, Thai, and Vietnamese ceramics documenting the trade from those areas with areas of present day Indonesia during the T’ang through Chin Dynasty. This exhibition is being held in conjunction with the Department of Archaeology. Another project we just completed was to acquire a large library of Indonesian manuscript Al Q’uarn and other rare and ancient manuscript (hand written) books for the Center of Islamic Studies of an important American University. This project took over three years to complete. This project was also done under the watchful eye of the Department of Archaeology as well as local Islamic scholars. During the course of my seven years of living on Bali, I have assisted in the recovery of some rather significant Kediri, Singosari and Majapahit era stone statues that were being pedaled by Indonesian sellers. Several of these stones now reside in the Majapahit pura pucat here in my home village. Incidentally, four years ago, I personally paid to have half of this temple rebuilt, as well as an addition made for it which houses a very important stone of Wishnu that I rescued from a seller who was going to export it. In addition, my wife and I have donated many other objects deemed as pusaka, including ancient and sacred kris to other temples, as well as to museums in Bali. Finally, there are those objects of great significance that we keep in our private collection, (for our boys), and simply will not sell. Rien, I find your comments, coming from a Dutchman, to be very ironic. Why? Just check the many museums in Holland that are full of pilfered artifacts from Indonesia during the over three hundred years of colonial occupation. Would you care to care to attempt to justify that? Was that any less than cultural rape? You write, [quote]Roy for instance never gives up his plea for keeping the Balinese land to the Balinese. The same Roy however is selling antiques and art to foreigners abroad as I am informed well.[/quote] That is absolutely correct, and in my view, there is no double standard. I apply the same zeal and commitment to the preservation of both the land for the Balinese, and also their cultural heritage. Rest assured however, that I do not look beyond the Balinese themselves for approval of my work or commitment to Bali. I frankly could care less about any foreign opinions.

Jim Thorpe

If selling a few statues, as Roy does, is selling out the Balinese culture then the Balinese culture is not strong enough to stand up to anything! If it is true then I hope that Roy will start selling some North Korean objects and destroy their culture. How about some Burma statues? Roy, you could be a one man wrecking machine! I will start calling you Roymbo for your ability to destroy cultures! :-)

Roy

Thanks Jim, but I'll stick to Roy. Hope your Iowa Winter isn't too bad.

Roy

Sorry, I forgot to add this in my previous post: In regards to your last point/question, yes, both the Director and Assistant Director of the Department of Archaeology here in Bali are Balinese. So as you correctly point out, it is the Balinese, in high levels of authority that are determining (as they should) which cultural artifacts or antiques are approved for export, albeit, not all such pieces exported from Bali are necessarily of Balinese origin.

rien.gluvers

[b]Re: RE: Two standards?[/b] [quote=Roy]The residents of this community will all be retires, and hold Indonesian retirement visas. They cannot, by virtue of their visas, work, run businesses, or accept income from any activities in Bali (or Indonesia as a whole). [/quote] Dear Roy, isn't this a bit naive. The most "not-owners" of businesses, trade- and export consultants I have heard of are working and making money in Bali on cultural/social or retirement visa's. I think I have even read a post of you going to Singapore for a visa extension?

Feelhip

I wonder why expats owning land in Bali could represent a bigger threat to Bali environments then Indonesian national. Architectural design should be approved first hand for any construction. I believe that, like in most tourist destination, large developers represent a much immediate danger. As American say (and I am not one) money talk and BS walk. Imagine what kind of resistance Bali people will be able to have against any Indonesian developers (who have the right by law to own lands) willing to set large residential area with modern facilities, without any consideration to Bali cultures. As I said money unfortunately set the rules of the games in most of attractive destination. In opposition to that a foreigner willing to invest is saving in a house in Bali will be mush easier to “control”. This is my feeling. Reciprocity as well could be part of the approval of construction project. In France, and many other countries the right to buy a land is simply based on your resident status. If you are legally registered as resident then nothing prevent you to purchase a land and set you dream house. Bali will change in time, this is inevitable. It can be done with laws and regulations. Is Indonesia ready for it? Philippe

Roy

Feelhip, first of all, foreigners cannot "own" land in Bali, (or anywhere else in Indonesia either) in the sense of the word "ownership" that you are accustomed. At best, and no matter what you call it, there are only a variety of legal schemes that allow for a time certain control of the use of that land. Secondly, you need to understand the role of the Banjar in Balinese society. Without Banjar approval, no developer, nobody (outside the Banjar) for that matter, is going to build anything, and that includes other Indonesian nationals. Rien, you write, [quote]Unfortunately I am not very concerned with preserving anything cultural whatsoever. I trust our governments to control that in the way the public wants.[/quote] That explains a lot...many thanks for the clarification. What Bert alluded to is a project I am working on with my Banjar to develop almost six hectars of prime Ayung River bank Banjar owned property into a retirement community within our Banjar. Included within the retirement community will be two schools and a first rate medical clinic with geriatric specialty including a helo pad for emergency medivac situations. Before anyone goes off and says, “ah ha” keep in mind that the development will remain under the ownership of the Banjar, and the income derived will be for the benefit of the Banjar. In a recent survey conducted by the AARP, the largest association of retired persons in the US, Bali came up as number five as most desirable places in the world to live after retirement. I noted your questioner on your web site with interest. When you come to Bali, who knows, maybe we can discuss this topic more. Nuri's Warung is open seven days a week, but Thursdays are the famous tuna nights if that was what you were asking about. Finally, concerning my strong opinions, consider this, I live here. Bali is my home, my family is all Balinese, and my Banjar is my town. As far as I am concerned, I have every right to have, and express, strong opinions regarding those matters. I’ve earned it. Your right, and feel free to exercise it, is to simply ignore my posts, and that’s just ducky with me. And if you think I'm with strong opinions, just wait until you meet some of the other Ubud expats at Nuris! :D

JabberWokker

[b]Re: RE: Two standards?[/b] [quote=Roy]In a recent survey conducted by the AARP, the largest association of retired persons in the US, Bali came up as number five as most desirable places in the world to live after retirement. [/quote] Thanks for that Roy. I am dying to get out there with my Balinese wife and quotes like that give me more drive to just pack my bags. However, the rat race calls, and I am still stuck in my well paid but unfulfilling job in the West. [b]The grass always seems greener on the other side, but the sun always shines in Bali.[/b] The problem with stats like that though, is that the money people will know and be waiting for the opportunity to cash in. I am into people like those on the forum making their way but not the corporations. Oh! and as far as two standards, we all have to make a buck... but do it knowing you are not harming anyone. Give good service and have happy customers.