JohnnyCool
[QUOTE]..Here the overwhelming culture of the road is a motorbike culture. The idea that you wouldn't look out for motorbikes is unthinkable..[/QUOTE]Well, they [B]should[/B] look out for [B]all[/B] traffic, not just motorbikes and often they don't. Something happens when some people take to the roads. Many never look left or right when pulling out of a lane into a "street". I see it all the time and have had many near misses (them almost running into my car, or me almost running over them by "accident").
Add to that that many locals seem to love to cut corners. Did I mention overtaking (or should I say "undertaking"), on the left-hand side of traffic?
Of those who actually wear a "helmet" of some kind, many don't do them up. Maybe these things are a by-product of Balinese Hindu beliefs - like, death is not the end.
Get killed and you'll get reincarnated.
Those who ride at night without lights do so for various reasons:
1) the lights are broken and don't work
2) saves the battery
3) think everybody should be able to see them so what's the problem
4) they only care about "laws" within their own banjars
5) they couldn't care less
[QUOTE]..For my money, they should lower the age to 15 and then strictly enforce that..[/QUOTE]Driving anything here is neither for the faint-hearted nor the inexperienced. Young teens are not particularly known for their powers of concentration, judgement and "common sense".
Lowering the age to 15 is a ridiculous proposition (IMHO). Why not lower it to 10 or 12? What's the difference?
When the existing road "laws" aren't being enforced as it is, what's going to change?
Thousands of people are already driving/riding around without "licences" and many vehicles aren't even registered properly.
[QUOTE]..Technically, they should be doing all that right now during the process to get their licence..[/QUOTE]They're not. "Technically" is one thing and "really" is another.
Many get their "licences" without doing any tests of any kind. The main police licensing place in Denpasar, (actually Kerobokan), has one room fitted out with a bunch of computers.
Those trying to do the right thing subject themselves to a form of torture, trying to answer multiple-choice questions that don't reflect actual conditions and unwritten practices on real roads.
Theory is fine, but survival more so.
The "smart" ones pay some extra money to the police (or one of their agents), do [B]no[/B] tests, get their fingerprints and photo taken and zoom off into the wild blue yonder.
Pull into the police station's parking lot and, depending what day it is, you can be surrounded by licence touts.
In all my years of living in Bali (about 21 now), I've never had to do any kinds of tests. One time, way back in the early 1970s (when I first came to Bali), I had to do a test for a motorbike licence.
It was early days and probably quite novel for the Balinese police at the time. The written part of the "test" was in Indonesian. No problem. If I didn't understand the question, the police told me which right answers to tick.
The physical riding test involved dodging and weaving through a few plastic hats without knocking any over. I remember a young Australian girl trying it - she knocked some over. The police moved them further apart and she finally managed.
If you care about your child, don't let him loose on a motorbike in Bali. Bali is definitely [B]not[/B] the place to learn driving for anybody, especially a 15 -year old.
I know of several expat's kids who've been killed over the years. Very unpleasant. And if they kill or injure somebody else, it all becomes even more complicated.
YPDN
JC, that can be considered benevolent socialism at it's smiling best.
But they still couldn't afford it. Even if they did, old Uncle Komang would borrow it and he doesn't bathe very often. And the $30 helms they use - a 2-wheeler expert I know said they might as well wear aluminium foil on their head, for all the protection those plastic helms provide.
JohnnyCool
A car travelling at 60 kmh that comes to an abrupt stop with a box of tissues flying around can cause severe injuries.
Your 2-wheel expert friend is totally correct.
On a brighter note, many helmets here have their uses, such as to scoop up bits of brain off the road as long as the helmet didn't shatter completely.
Some riders might as well wear a box of tissues on their heads (cheaper even than tin-foil hats). And tissues probably wouldn't affect wi-fi signals while riders are trying to text as they're riding, or searching for Pokemon characters.
Oh..and why doesn't [I]old Uncle Komang[/I] bathe very often? Can't afford water, or there isn't enough of it?
Just curious.
:lemo:
davita
We had a friend from USA visiting and he seriously wondered why Bali people wear, as he described, 'Tupperware' on their head.....when driving motor-bikes.
DenpasarHouse
[QUOTE]Lowering the age to 15 is a ridiculous proposition (IMHO). Why not lower it to 10 or 12? What's the difference?[/QUOTE]
Seriously? You think there's no difference in maturity between a 10 and a 15 year old?
[QUOTE]Bali is definitely not the place to learn driving for anybody, especially a 15 -year old.[/QUOTE]
You do realise that literally millions of people do exactly this. I would never recommend a westerner come to Indonesia to learn how to ride a motorbike as the road culture is vastly different. But someone who has grown up here has this culture already ingrained in them.
[QUOTE]They're not. "Technically" is one thing and "really" is another.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I know. That's why I said "Technically".
[QUOTE]I know of several expat's kids who've been killed over the years.[/QUOTE]
That's very sobering and if you've got the time to go into it I'd be very interested to hear their stories.
YPDN
JohnnyCool wroteThousands of people are already driving/riding around without "licences" and many vehicles aren't even registered properly.
To a certain extent, this is brought about by financial circumstance. The SAMSAT costs are a certain amount plus the actual DL costs around Rp350,000 for 5 years.
We foreigners pay the same SAMSAT amount as the locals do. Their DL - well, Rp350K is a lot to a local and they probably have trouble putting thaat together at the time. I pay the license fee for my people because a) it's good to do and b) I send them on errands whenever I need to, using their own wheels. I also give enough for fuel each time.
The Government should bring the pricing more into line with the current living costs for locals. IMO, the cost for a DL is way too high for a local. I use an Int'l Permit which is $45 (Rp450K) [I]per annum[/I]. Plus the cost of providing a passport-sized photo for it for most of the renewals.
YPDN
JohnnyCool wroteOh..and why doesn't [I]old Uncle Komang[/I] bathe very often? Can't afford water, or there isn't enough of it?
Just curious.:lemo:
I have smelled a few of them. Aunt Komang as well.
And, as we get older and become less interested in presenting ourselves, we bathe less often, shave less often and get haircuts less often.
That, of course, is a generalization. But it tells a story.
YPDN
davita wroteWe had a friend from USA visiting and he seriously wondered why Bali people wear, as he described, 'Tupperware' on their head.....when driving motor-bikes.
I fell off my HONDA Vario September 2015 at about 25 kms/hr.
I was wearing an Aussie standard open-face helmet.
I still recall the tinny sound the helmet conveyed from the left side while I slid along the new asphalt.
JohnnyCool
[QUOTE]...Why not lower it to 10 or 12? What's the difference?...[/QUOTE]I was being flippant. Of course I know the difference. I presume that you do, too.
[QUOTE]...someone who has grown up here has this culture already ingrained in them...[/QUOTE]That's true. However, there are also kids with a tree or asphalt ingrained in their heads (the "lucky" ones who died). Others might be riding around in a wheelchair, if their families can afford one.
[QUOTE]...expat's kids who've been killed over the years...[/QUOTE]The ones I personally know of were killed many years ago (late 1990s, when traffic was much lighter than these days). I don't remember all the details now, but I'll give you one example:
An expat couple took over a restaurant in the Ubud area. They had a beautiful and precociously "independent" daughter (aged about 15/16). One night she went to Double Six (Kuta/Legian) with a group of friends.
Her main friend was Balinese (maybe 17/18 yo). After leaving Double Six to ride back to Ubud, (an even longer ride then than these days), they crashed or were crashed into and she died on the spot. Her parents were devastated, sold-up and left Bali.
I know several others with similar stories. I also know of quite a few Balinese kids who've been killed riding motorbikes, getting themselves wiped out by trucks, losing control after hitting potholes, accidentally driving over cliffs, etc.
If you wouldn't let your 15 yo son ride in Australia, letting him do so here could turn out very bad. Learning Balinese "road culture" doesn't come from handling a bike in a soccer field.
Roads aren't playgrounds anywhere in the world, especially here. Going with the flow of traffic takes experience, and a healthy dose of art, luck and "science".
Always need to expect the unexpected.
davita
YPDN wroteI fell off my HONDA Vario September 2015 at about 25 kms/hr.
I was wearing an Aussie standard open-face helmet.
I still recall the [COLOR="#FF0000"]tinny[/COLOR] sound the helmet conveyed from the left side while I slid along the new asphalt.
Your post is hilarious YPDN...last time I was in OZ I drank many [COLOR="#FF0000"]tinnys[/COLOR]. Are you sure that wasn't the reason for falling off your Honda...JEEZ I can even hold onto a Vario ojek with my belly full of Bintang....:icon_e_biggrin:
YPDN
davita wroteJEEZ I can even hold onto a Vario ojek with my belly full of Bintang....:icon_e_biggrin:
ha ha
You are a better man than I am, DVT.
The tinny sound is very reminiscent of landing a taildragger on the mains and then bleeding the attitude with FWD stick and then more FWD stick. Eventually the tail wheel comes down and there's that noise. It sounded like that. You almost can't hear it on an unsealed surface.
We used to try and call it accurately when the Dakota was landing. (I have never landed one though)
Big Cheers! Grown men acting like retarded kids.
YPDN
I like wheelers. They seem more difficult but you have greater control during that phase, IMO, with differential braking.
The guy who taught me, apart from being a bit of a grouch, liked them too.
3-pointers can stress the tailwheel which isn't really intended to take that impact if you don't grease it on.
Come in, low and slow, and get rid of the ballerina shoes asap.
If/when Garuda does the BALI-US flights, the price will be most likely higher than the $900 on SUB-SQ return. Therefore, who is going to choose Garuda.
davita
The tinny sound is very reminiscent of landing a taildragger on the mains and then bleeding the attitude with FWD stick and then more FWD stick. Eventually the tail wheel comes down and there's that noise. It sounded like that. You almost can't hear it on an unsealed surface.
We used to try and call it accurately when the Dakota was landing. (I have never landed one though)
I know what you mean as I flying was on this bird around 1963-5ish....
Handley Page Hastings - Military Wiki - Wikia
My log book, from those days, was eaten by termites and ended up like confetti so, sadly, don't have any details of those flights.
The pilot landing would lose sight of the runway when in a proper three wheel position...two wheelies, as you describe, were not good landings as they tended to bounce and extended the runway needed for landing.
He would call for power 'slow-cut or cut' depending on how close he thought he was to the ground. The Flight Engineer, who handled the throttles, could see the distance from the wheels to the ground from a side window, and would adjust the throttles accordingly...thus, if it was a good three point landing the pilot got hi-5's, if it bounced it was the F/E's fault.
That was considered fair if the pilot flying bought the after-flight beers.....:lemo:
davita
YPDN..Are you a viable contributor to this forum and wish to debate your concerns and have a conversation that is not abusive....or are you just trolling for arguments?
YPDN
davita wroteYPDN..Are you a viable contributor to this forum and wish to debate your concerns and have a conversation that is not abusive....or are you just trolling for arguments?
Certainly not the latter. Never that. Perhaps it's a cultural thing? An 'understanding' thing?
I will restrict postings significantly.
And thanks for your comment. Much appreciated, DVT.
I have never played well with the other kids and also thought I simply contributed honestly when 'spoken to' directly.
If that's not good enough it's not really all to my account.
I am also fairly quiet by nature, preferring peace as well as quiet. And solitude.
Let's leave it there.
Geezus! WTF.
davita
Re" post 42 by YPDN
In that case..welcome to the forum and general debate.
You appear to have experience and knowledge and attitude which is admirable and welcome....let's have your positive comments.
DenpasarHouse
JohnnyCool wroteI was being flippant. Of course I know the difference. I presume that you do, too.
Alright. Well, that was a waste of time.
JohnnyCool wrote . . . there are also kids with a tree or asphalt ingrained in their heads . . .
Heh. Good one.
JohnnyCool wrote . . . she died on the spot.
Thanks for the story. We're not hooked into the expat scene here so I have no idea how common it is.
JohnnyCool wroteI also know of quite a few Balinese kids who've been killed riding motorbikes . . .
I suppose that's the crux of it from my point of view. I haven't heard of a single person dying from a motorbike accident. In the 4-5 years I've been on the road in Bali I've personally only seen 2 minor accidents, never been in any myself and neither has my Balinese wife in the decade-or-so that she's being riding around.
Still, you're probably right. It's probably only reasonable for a 15 year-old if they've had extensive training, practice and testing. Which is a pretty unrealistic expectation for this country.
davita
Further to my post #10 here is some 'meat on the bones' of my posit...Dr Tjakra is the surgeon who recently operated on my Colon Tumor. This concerned the situation in 2011...imagine if the same stats were produced recently with the increase in traffic. I cannot get out of my head the stupidity of motorcyclists in Bali...not only the childrens issue.
[I]"(9/2/2012) Bali Daily (The Jakarta Post) quotes Dr. Tjakra Wibawa Manuaba of the medical faculty at Bali’s Udayana University citing traffic accidents as the island’s number one public health issue.
Said Dr. Manuaba: “People might consider cardiovascular disease, cancer, diabetes and even contagious diseases like rabies as the most incurable and deadly diseases for the Balinese people. For me, traffic accidents are now the biggest killer.”
Concerned at the growing number of accident and resulting casualties that disproportionately affect young people, Manuaba regrets the resulting widespread physical, financial and psychological consequences for Bali and its people.
While the Indonesian Cancer Foundation blames cancer for numerous deaths, Manuaba, who is himself an oncologist, retorts: “Cancer and cardiovascular diseases are actually treatable if the sufferer receives early medical treatment and leads a healthy life.”
Bali police estimate that 700 people lost their lives in traffic accidents in 2011, a total that does not include people who died in hospital or later as the result of injuries sustained on Bali’s roadways. In the same year, 759 sustained serious injuries while 1,591 suffered minor injuries.
Traffic injuries and deaths are most prevalent among people aged 16-30 years of age. The Sanglah General Hospital in Denpasar claims its treats 150 people every day involved in traffic mishaps on the island’s roads
Manuaba continued: “This [traffic accidents] is the most crucial public health issue that must be addressed in a comprehensive way. It is mostly caused by lack of discipline, human error and public ignorance on the dangers of driving recklessly . . . Poor road facilities, unclear traffic signs and weak law enforcement also contribute to serious traffic accidents.”
The Doctor slammed the failure of the police, families and schools to educate young people on road safety. He also cited the tendency for parent to ignore the law and to purchase motorcycles for their children who are unlicensed and too young to legally operate a motor vehicle.
He said 80% of the accidents in Bali involve motorcycles."[/I]
Markit
Don't pay any attention to Davita, he just got re-attached to his asshole and I fear it's in the process of rejecting him.
YPDN
Markit wroteDon't pay any attention to Davita, he just got re-attached to his asshole and I fear it's in the process of rejecting him.
heh heh funny quip
