Weird Situations "R" Us?!

[Markit]

Purely hypothetical you understand...

Once upon a time there was this chap living in Bali (lets call him Mungo) who was a dual national of 2 western countries.

He was living here on a retirement visa (Kitas) and was in his 3rd or 4th year.

Some fool offered him a nice job here in Indo with all the benefits including a working visa.

Here's where it gets weird: Mungo would really like to become Indonesian in a couple of years and surrender one of his foreign passports for that purpose.

Now the problem is if Mungo goes for the working visa that will ruin his chances of the Indo citizenship tied to his retirement Kitas. Once the job is over he would have to start from fresh with the R. Kitas to build up the 5 years needed to apply for Indo citizenship.

It had occurred to Mungo that it might be an idea to keep renewing the R. Kitas on the one passport and go for the working visa on his other passport.

Is there any where this could feck up?

 

[davita]

Only if he gets caught....and deported....never to return. It's like robbing a bank...earn a lot of money unless caught...:grumpy:

I don't know but do the Immigration and Manpower computers have some method of information transfer when applying for an IMTA/Kitas....or not? Especially for someone with the odd name...Mungo. If he was Jack Smith....probably go unnoticed.:icon_e_biggrin:

 

[spicyayam]

Maybe he could pretend he has a twin brother with the same name?

Anyway, Indonesian citizenship is not easy from what I have heard, unless maybe you are willing to pay big bucks. The process can also take several years.

 

[Markit]

See guys you automatically assume (Makes an ASS out of U and ME) that this is actually illegal.

Why would it be?

I suspect that there isn't a law governing this situation and I told Mungo exactly that.

You can not legislate for every eventuality and experience shows that the Indos have a tough time legislating for what is fecking obvious, let alone the weird ****.

Hence my (Mungo's) question.

If you can't be bothered to use the brain then don't be bothered to answer...

 

[ronb]

ronb

I don't know working visas all that well but recall they are a bit like a KITAS with an IMTA.

So the checking they do when you come and go without all that much help from computers is
1. on KITAS/KITAP they match your departures to your subsequent re-entries
2. on sosbud or tourist visa they match your entries to subsequent departures - but that does not count here

So your Mungo wants to maintain 2 personas and keep this secret from RI.

So say he is here on retirement KITAS and leaves. He has an exit permit that may be good for 12 months. He could re-enter using his work KITAS, and leave in less than 12 months. But then he is using and exit permit on the work KITAS which may be good for 12 months. He has to return on his retirement KITAS while that exit permit is still OK in order to keep that KITAS alive.

Very complex, you would slip up sooner or later, and it is hard to see what plan for comings and goings he has and it is hard to see where the benefit of this double life is.

 

[Nydave]

Reality as we know it he is the same person,

On paper he is two different people(passports) and legally so,

Therefore as I see it he is not lying when he says he is Mungo from whatever country for his retirement visa purposes,and Mungo from some other country for his work visa,

I cant imagine that there is any cooperation between immigration and manpower in Ri,hell there`s no cooperation between politicians so why would any other agencies do it,

However I agree with Spicy that its his exits and returns from the country is where he might make a mistake,if he was coming and going regularly perhaps using different airports would be an option,i don't know anything about either working or retirement visas or kitas so maybe using only one of them for exit and reentry would be a safer bet,

Real interesting topic here,im sure there will be many different ideas and opinions

 

[Markit]

Guys anyone with dual nationalities is used to keeping his/her comings and goings organized.

 

[davita]

All visa applications I've made have required the following details to be submitted...

1. Have you ever been to Indonesia before?... Yes/No.
2. Are you in possession of any other countries travel documents?...Yes/No.
3. Do you have any previous visa to enter Indonesia?...Yes/No.

Link Sect 5 Miscellaneous.....http://www.samspassport.com/visa/documents/IndonesiaApplicationNew.pdf

 

[Markit]

I find these questions .. questionable and I'm unclear what you want to say...

1. Have you ever been to Indonesia before?... Yes/No. Yes or No - check the passport stupid there's stamps galore.
2. Are you in possession of any other countries travel documents?...Yes/No. Yes or No - so what? Sorry didn't bring it with me this time.
3. Do you have any previous visa to enter Indonesia?...Yes/No. A passport full, thank you.

Frankly Mungo wasn't planning on doing much hither and thither, more staying and playing so the eye of the needle (immigration wise) would not be a real problem in this scheme of things.

 

[davita]

You obviously didn't read the link...these are written questions on the application form....which require a signature.

edit to your edit...Mungo will need to make an application to get the work Vitas/Imta. He will then need to leave RI and return to get his new Kitas, in his other passport, within 7 days of re-entry.

 

[ronb]

ronb

I find these questions .. questionable and I'm unclear what you want to say...

1. Have you ever been to Indonesia before?... Yes/No. Yes or No - check the passport stupid there's stamps galore.
2. Are you in possession of any other countries travel documents?...Yes/No. Yes or No - so what? Sorry didn't bring it with me this time.
3. Do you have any previous visa to enter Indonesia?...Yes/No. A passport full, thank you.

Frankly Mungo wasn't planning on doing much hither and thither, more staying and playing so the eye of the needle (immigration wise) would not be a real problem in this scheme of things.

Well Mungo has not thought deeply has he?

He has two identities - lets call them R-Mungo (retired) and W-Mungo (work). But there are constraints:
1. only one Mungo can be in Indonesia at any one time
2. the other Maungo cannot stay away more than 12 months or else he will lose a KITAS

So "Mungo wasn't planning on doing much hither and thither" does not compute!

 

[Markit]

You obviously didn't read the link...these are written questions on the application form....which require a signature. Yes and why would you not sign this form if you understood the questions how I have presented?

edit to your edit...Mungo will need to make an application to get the work Vitas/Imta. No, his employer will do all that on or with the passport that is NOT being used for the R. Kitas.



He will then need to leave RI and return to get his new Kitas, in his other passport, within 7 days of re-entry. Gonna have to think about that one, hmmm.

 

[Markit]

Well Mungo has not thought deeply has he? Possibly not, I'll tell him.

He has two identities - lets call them R-Mungo (retired) and W-Mungo (work). But there are constraints:
1. only one Mungo can be in Indonesia at any one time Why? Lets assume that R. Mungo is already here on his retirement Kitas and then gets this great job where the employer gets Worker Mungo (W.Mungo) his IMTA/Kitas on the unused passport. In this case both Mungos are here at the same time.
2. the other Maungo cannot stay away more than 12 months or else he will lose a KITAS see previous.

So "Mungo wasn't planning on doing much hither and thither" does not compute! Mungo is only gonna have problems coming and going into and out of RI since nobody usually asks for passports or visas in the country he aint going anywhere.

 

[davita]

I'm assuming Mungo would truthfully say he had visited RI before.
He would truthfully say he has another country passport...and
He would truthfully admit he held a previous visa to enter RI.
All those questions, answered in the affirmative, will bring up a red flag when he applies for the next visa on another passport...
The employer will not be the one filling the personal passport details on the application form and signing as to their accuracy...the client does that but his sponsorship will be annotated. The employer does have to apply for the IMTA to Manpower...not immigration, and the IMTA belongs to the employer.

As the Kitas will not be an extension to his previous passsport, as he's using another passport, he will need to leave RI and return...then receive the new Kitas within 7 days.

I'm not sure but find it difficult to believe Immigration will allow him to keep his old Kitas in one passport when he is obviously applying for a new one in a new passport.

 

[Markit]

I'm assuming Mungo would truthfully say he had visited RI before.
He would truthfully say he has another country passport...and
He would truthfully admit he held a previous visa to enter RI.
All those questions, answered in the affirmative, will bring up a red flag when he applies for the next visa on another passport... Why would those questions cause problems if Mungo has been to RI previously on BOTH passports? At different times.
The employer will not be the one filling the personal passport details on the application form and signing as to their accuracy...the client does that but his sponsorship will be annotated. The employer does have to apply for the IMTA to Manpower...not immigration, and the IMTA belongs to the employer.

As the Kitas will not be an extension to his previous passsport, as he's using another passport, he will need to leave RI and return...then receive the new Kitas within 7 days.

I'm not sure but find it difficult to believe Immigration will allow him to keep his old Kitas in one passport when he is obviously applying for a new one in a new passport I feel sure Mungo wasn't intending to draw much attention to the fact that he does possess 2 passports - bear in mind there is nothing, as far as I know, illegal about the whole process, hence my question. All of your "questions" could be answered in the affirmative without raising eyebrows or lying as the situation just never happens and people don't assume the answers are for 2 passports, why would they?

1. Have you ever been to Indonesia before?... Yes/No. Yes or No - check the passport stupid there's stamps galore.
2. Are you in possession of any other countries travel documents?...Yes/No. Yes or No - so what? Sorry didn't bring it with me this time.
3. Do you have any previous visa to enter Indonesia?...Yes/No. A passport full, thank you.
.

You can't keep asking "what if" questions assuming the immi guy knows Mungo has 2 passports - he/they would not.

And even if he did there is nothing illegal in international law with that. If RI rules and regs don't consider the possibility when enacting their Kafkaesque visa laws then whose fault is that?

 

[davita]

All those questions, answered in the affirmative, will bring up a red flag when he applies for the next visa on another passport...

Q. "Why would those questions cause problems if Mungo has been to RI previously on BOTH passports? At different times.

A. His original status, on the passport he presents on entry, was as a retired person. His change of status using another passport to achieve a work permit would....if there was transfer of information....be contradictory.
I'm not sure but find it difficult to believe Immigration will allow him to keep his old Kitas in one passport when he is obviously applying for a new one in a new passport

Q. "I feel sure Mungo wasn't intending to draw much attention to the fact that he does possess 2 passports - bear in mind there is nothing, as far as I know, illegal about the whole process, hence my question. All of your "questions" could be answered in the affirmative without raising eyebrows or lying as the situation just never happens and people don't assume the answers are for 2 passports, why would they?

A. My point is...in his application he is required to note if he is a national of another country other than the passport information he renders for this application. Lying on a government document would constitute a felony under RI law. I believe maximum penalty is 5 years jail.

Q. And even if he did there is nothing illegal in international law with that. If RI rules and regs don't consider the possibility when enacting their Kafkaesque visa laws then whose fault is that?

A. All Sovereign states, within their jurisdiction, have the right to enact their own law irrespective of your 'so-called' International Law.

On 2nd thoughts....why not ask Mungo to go to his nearest immigration office with both passports, explain his plan, and get their results. That way you wouldn't need to be so offensive as to post "If you can't be bothered to use the brain then don't be bothered to answer... and we would all be wiser.