The Blame Game

[Aliceinbali]

RE: Land Ownership Poll

I find this blame game so exhausting. Balinese are of course responsible for their own destiny. But its westerns who impose on their green culture on Bali that has been magical for centuries. I don't always agree with Roy and his godly like way of always removing Bali from all aspects of all consequences. But I do feel its Tourism that put Bali on the western map and its tourism that will turn Bali into yet another horrible empty tourist spot. It is Balinese who decide to sell their land to the highest western bidder and its the endless supply of fantasy filled cultureless westerns who flock to Bali to retire instead of letting her be. I truly understand why Roy and others defend Bali as a blanket statement; it is his home after all. Is this kind of arguing in forums normal? Is this where people get to vent on other people? Or is this a forum where people can learn, discover and enjoy all kinds of experiences without insults? Like me example, why is it that I get reprimanded for something that the person who’s doing doesn’t even fully read what I said nor actually grasp the content? Or is that every person out there as to be an All knowing source of information and HIS opinions are facts? I rarely read warm, respectful responses. Is there any hope for this? Is it possible for ALL of Bali lovers to enjoy sharing, READING and thinking without being so rude? Id like to think those who truly love Bali are a highly intelligent special kind of human, one that has a foot in two worlds. But never loses sight of reality? I guess if most of these questions are answered with more rudeness and lots of no's then the real Bali is truly lost. Because this forum should represent the people who are truly dedicated to persevering real Bali.

 

[MUDCRAB]

Now Alice, I'm gonna get in some hot water here.
*Stands on edge of diving board...bounce.. Double pike and 'Splash' head first in.

Well, it always appears to me that if there is any decisions to be made it will be an American that will stand up and insist he is right and knows what’s best for the rest.
Why is it that Americans go to countries and try to change/alter and make the most noise unlike others?
I see it happen all over Asia.

Now this isn't slanted at anyone but it's what I feel.

 

[Roy]

Come on Alice, get over it. This forum is not about discussing cookie recipes, or the Junior League...it’s about Bali. And from your own historical perspective, it’s about a Bali lost to you. I see that you have dropped the “Toto, it isn’t Bali anymore” because, (I guess), you’ve figured out that it is...still Bali, Toto not withstanding.

Bali will not be a topic of discussion by anyone committed to her who is without passion and decisive comments. In truth, this forum is a whole lot more polite than most forums, and by far. This forum is not about nice, the pat the head, smooth the hair and walk on egg shells forums that others are. Those other forums fail miserably in offering nothing more important than where to buy a game boy cheap, or is a raspberry cordial good for Bali belly. If you want nice...go there.

I’m sorry if you really believe that there is some sort of “blame game” going on here. Christ Alice, I’ve been called a hypocrite and a tomb robber in just the last week! So what? Have I quit this forum?

Grow your skin a little thicker, throw in the towel and either get into or not. But please, don’t call for some kind of Martha Stewart BS....OK?

 

[Roy]

Now this isn't slanted at anyone but it's what I feel.

That's OK Mr. Mud. No arguments from me so long as you never refer to my Bali as your little OZ. Mengerti?

 

[balijeff]

Alice,

You are to be commended for trying to improve the lives of Balinese...you gave them jobs and I'm willing to say you were and are respectful of their culture. All you did was employ those who had no job, taught them your values and learned of theirs. You actually did what so many others merely dream of doing: you made a difference.

Yet, somehow you feel you contributed to the delinquency of the Balinese. If so, it was very, very little - and the good you brought far outweighs any 'greed' they may have learned.

They Balinese knew of greed and murder and theft and lust and lies and all that 'good' stuff, far before they were 'ruined' by foreigners. All you did was give them the opportunity to express it. Nothing more. You are guilty of trying and succeeding in helping the Balinese.

Some persons have this delusional idea that Balinese can do no wrong. That they are purely victims to the evils of the West and all the West can do is corrupt and ruin and destroy. Of course, his solution is to build a gallery and villa complex for old people (from the West!). So keep that in mind...his persepctive is always skewed and illogical.. You are not guilty.

You deserve a medal, not a slap on the wrist from a hypocrite.

Jeffrey

 

[Roy]

Jeff...give it a rest. You're starting to sound like you need professional help.

 

[Tommy]

I can't form any opinion at all about Alices late business and life in Bali due to the fact that i know nothing about her or her business. :idea: By reading your reply Jeff it seems you and Alice have known each other for years or is it an overload of assumptions i hear? :?: Sorry to say this but i'm starting to sense the "mark-syndrome" if you know what i mean.. :shock:

 

[Aliceinbali]

Blah. Thanks for the support Jeff.
Praise Ala Roy. The all knowing and judgement passer.
Martha stewart? Its called having passion for something but not being a know it all.

I say Boycott Roy! lol Roy sucks!

 

[balijeff]

Tommy,

Hahaha. Can I say educated assumptions? Will you let me get away with that?

Of course not.

Maybe this will help (or maybe not):

Alice had a company which employed Balinese. We know this because she told us so.

This job was an improvement. We know this because the workers now had jobs. Had they a job before working for Alice and that job was 'better', they wouldnt have quit to work for Alice. Therefore, Alice's job was an improvement (either no job to a having a job or a worse job to a better job).

Alice cares about the Balinese way of life. She also told us this, albeit indirectly. To me, one doesnt lament "causing greed" if they dont care about improving the lives of Balinese. This hints at respect for other cultures. Why worry about causing greed if you dont care about their way of life or their culture? Its called guilt. I dont think people feel guilty when they dont care about the consequences of their actions. In this case, causing greed.

That is my reasoning. Take it or leave it, up to you.

But do not assume that I oppose for the sake of opposing or for any other reason.

Jeffrey

 

[Aliceinbali]

Jeff your one bright guy. I think that your one of the only posters who reply to my posts that have actually grasped what I have done and said. When I first went to mentioned villaiged.. Not one them had running water, not even central wells.. None had power, none had temples that held more then a small statue with offerings. Only one person in one the village had a motor bike and it took over an hour on a bumpy muddy horrible road to get the the main road. But the treasure i found there was amazing... It was the pure raw talent of a couple hundred or so people who could paint and carve without even ever having a contract or any formal training. I was amazed at what they could do so I designed and produced a extremely large and successful line of items that made them into the villiage they are today. It was their untapped talent that made it all possible. One of the funniest stories I remember was when I brought them true quality paint brushes, paints and high end carving tools ( about $3000 ) US dollars worth. They smiled , mummered then went back to useing the tools they had made themselves by hand. It wasnt until a year later that I convinced them that these new tools would enable them to create even more precise magical things. Within a couple years I/ my company was investing mounthly 75,000 US dollars a month into their economy.. along with building roads, factories, wells electricity and in no time every single lead artist was driving a brand new bike!
And now thats all in the past and when I go to visit that place I am treated like a celebrity. With all that and so much thats never been said on this forum. I still feel like I could have done it better. Not for me but for them. The president of my company was chinese and against all of his advise on not spoiling them I gave into their pleas of more rice, more this more houses, more more more. MY failure .. not theirs.
Stan.. the big boss said as Roy said... I was weak.. not hard hearted enough to not give into thier pleas.. That it would in the end ruin everything. That they would stop appreciating what was given and expect more as I gave in. The Story of Sally (in the fiction section of this forum... it isnt fiction..) tells just a couple of the events that led to the end. What I find odd about some of the posters is that they doubt an experience of a person whos freely sharing the given information. Why would a person spend time and emotions sharing these things if they didnt care about Bali of her people? Anyway.. thanks for being the person who can recieve information with any real level of intelligent logical comprehension. Without having to step up to the all knowing ego pumping preach podium. Clearly if people here do not enjoy my contribution on this forum by sharing, truth and experiences then I surely have better things to do.

 

[Aliceinbali]

Oh and MUDCRAB.. how does your post on the American thing have anything to do with anything I said?

I am not American by birth.. I am Chilean.. any irreverent moronic statements you want to say about Chileans?


Sigh..

 

[MUDCRAB]

I am not American by birth.. I am Chilean.

So what age did you go to the states?

 

[Jimbo]

Nice writing Alice. Sometimes we all must remember we are fallible and cannot always be right. If you learn from your mistakes then you gain a richness in life. If you don't then you remain ignorant.

There is a sadness in your tone that shows you care. I like that and find it more appealing than beligerence.

 

[staraquarius]

I've lived as an expat in many Asian countries. I've heard many times the worst thing Western countries taught them is greed.

There's a tiny island country in the Pacific where locals just don't work. They ever had to in the past - they could catch all the fish they needed for themselves. Enough wild vegetables grew everywhere for them to take, but never more than they needed. They had enough land, and I've been told this is probably the only island country where there aren't any "traditional boats" to go far - they didn't even need boats to catch fish.

Then foreign countries came in. Building "infrastructures". Governments, roads, schools, hospitals. After WW2, Americans took the country back and returned it to the locals - but locals had no idea how to run a "country".

Since the US has set up a trust for them, they don't have to worry about money to run the country. There is a tax system but nobody pays. Local people get free medical in the USA - including free airfare. Schools are free. Government officlas are all locals, of course, but behind them are American lawyers running the show.

Yeah, they may be lazy. But the truth is, why shouldn't they be? What was wrong with the way of life they had 100 years ago? Why is the Western way of life being introduced as the "good way of life"?

I'm just using this as an example. I'm not saying providing running water, roofs over their heads, good roads and the basic convenience of living is bad. It is human nature to want more as soon as we have more, isn't it? So what's too much, what's not enough?

I have no answers to any of this, just stating my observations. I'm far from being better than anyone - it's not like I've done anything for the "local community". And for all Alice has done, she has my admiration and respect.

 

[balijeff]

Star,

Great post. What Island is that? I ask because I want to live and 'work' there!

Heres my take on it: The foreigners arrived and introduced everything you mentioned. The locals wanted more of what the foreigners had. This is greed.

Now, was the greed always there or was it learned?

I say it was always there and merely had an opportunity to manifest. These locals had never seen or heard or even imagined an air conditioner (insert whatever) existed. How could they possibly express desire for something they could not have conceived? You cant want what you dont know exists.

Introduce Americans and their aircons. Having seen the benefits of such, the locals now want one for themselves. Some people cry "See, you introduce greed!". Im not so sure. People have wants. If an aircon improves life, why wouldnt they want one.
They arent dumb.

Thats my take anyway. I'd like to hear more of your experiences and how they pertain to this discussion. I really do. Not only educational, but I can test my hypothesis further....haha, ok, not everyday you get asked to be lab rat huh?

Um, is that actually a coherent post? I have been reading it over and it seems like I'm missing something....

Jeffrey