"Rules" for Kitas and volunteering on Social Visa

[Sydjapan]

Hi...I took some time to search the archives, so I actually have the probable answers to my two questions. On the other hand, there is often "theory" and "reality" when it comes to many issues, it seems, and visa stuff seems to have many varying opinions....happy to hear them all!

1) If a person has a KITAS through getting a job with a company or through making a company with an Indonesian partner and then getting the visa - Are people restricted to exactly the type of work/income their visa is processed for? For example, if a person had a visa issued for working as a chef, could they do other non-related work where and when they want to?

The answer I found was "No." The visa is specific for the work stated...

Yes/No/Maybe so?

2) Can a person do non-paid volunteer work on a social visa? If the answer is "No", then is there some kind of documentation that could/would be supplied by a charity/group that states that the person is doing volunteer work, but NOT getting paid, and possibly further stating that it is work that an Indonesian person "can't or would not likely be able to " do... (Teaching English as a native speaker, for example...)

Yes/No/Maybe so......?

Precise "rules, but also thoughts and opinions would be most welcome...

Thanks in advance....

 

[Sanurian]

Excellent that you searched the archives here first, Sydjapan.
I cannot help you with "Precise rules" and doubt that anybody else can on this forum.

The "answers" to your two questions, at least as far as I understand the "rules" are:

Question 1: No. And not only that, I've heard that it's important to make sure what appears even on one's business card. So, if you're employed as a chef, it shouldn't say that you're a graphic designer as well.

Question 2: Maybe. I've never really found the exact answer myself.

For example, I used to play in bands in Bali and Java, (for free), and started to worry about if I was breaking the conditions of my Sosial Budaya visa. Some suggested that it was a distinct possibility. Again, never found out for sure.

I currently live here on a Retirement Visa. The "conditions" seem to indicate that I can't do any work, voluntary or otherwise. I can play golf all day, if I want - that's OK, and so on.

When you find out more, please share your information with us.
I hope this helps you a little bit.

 

[Bert Vierstra]

1) If a person has a KITAS through getting a job with a company or through making a company with an Indonesian partner and then getting the visa - Are people restricted to exactly the type of work/income their visa is processed for?

Yes. And, you are even restricted to work from the address the company is registered.

 

[Roy]

There are a great many expats in Bali on both S/B and retirement visas that are very active in non paying volunteer work. For starters, just check the membership of any of the Bali based Rotary organizations.

 

[Sanurian]

Yes, Roy
Even I know that.

But is it "legal" in this country?

That's the question...

 

[Sydjapan]

I pretty much thought so, Roy. I assumed there are many people doing volunteer work and not getting paid and thereby not "bothering" anyone. To me that's the likely reality but was wondering what the odds would be of the legal rules being enforced? (Once again if those are REALLY the rules...?) It would be pretty terrible if someone was on a Social visa and had reorganized their life to live in Bali and got booted for being a volunteer... Roy, you would know perhaps, but some of the people on Social or Retirement visas who are doing volunteer work must at times be fairly high profile? That's what makes me wonder?

Obviously personality types comes into play, but I can imagine some people (myself to a degree) would be uncomfortable having to be looking over their shoulder. For example Sanurian's example of playing in a band but wondering if he would get in trouble?

About the KITAS - wow - very strict. So the question that comes up is how far do they enforce the rules? In either the Social Visa/Volunteer case or the KITAS case, would a person get a "warning" to stop the rule breaking or....?

sj

 

[Bert Vierstra]

I heard of only one case who supposed to have been send home being caught illegally working. Note: heard. You hear a lot of things,

I know another case where a foreign worker did have a Kitas, worked for a company he didn't get his Kitas from, they got checked and they were allowed to get things right.

Officials are getting more tight it seems, in checking PT's with foreigners working.

 

[Sydjapan]

Thanks Bert - If I think about it, it would be really hard to believe that someone would get expelled from Bali for doing volunteer work. Violating a work visa would reasonably be more of a case for expulsion. Visas and violations and so on seem to be and probably always will be "case-by-case" with extenuating circumstances being considered.

Not that Japan really matters at all in this discussion but as a point of observation - it is hard to get a visa for this country, but once on one, pretty easy to do what you want...If you change jobs from your sponsored job and actually went to immigration to tell them, they don't even care to know unless your visa is expiring. With 3 year visas pretty much the norm for teachers, there are literally 1000s of people running around working wherever they want. If you leave your company the day after your visas is issued - you have 3 years! A person can have part time jobs and various jobs, as well. For clarification, this isn't a "Japan is better than Bali" paragraph - just an observation of a difference from another Asian country.

sj

 

[BaliLife]

About the KITAS - wow - very strict. So the question that comes up is how far do they enforce the rules?

from what i experience, see and hear, most rules are only enforced in indonesia when the enforcer can get an easy bribe - period..

i'll give you an easy example.. in surabaya it is commonly known, that police don't pull over drivers (as in employed drivers) when they're alone in the car - regardless of the violation.. they're not able to shake down a driver.. but if the boss is in the car, then they'll be pulled over for the most minor of infractions faster than you can turn your head.. it's called 'mata duit' - 'money eyes' or maybe more correctly translating to "eyes for money" and from what i've experienced it is second-nature to 'enforcers' in indonesia - police, customs / immigration, etc.. if they think they can make a buck, they'll harass you, if they don't think they can, they wont.. so given that, anythings possible - depends on what they see when they look at you.. an easy buck or not?

ct

 

[Sydjapan]

Though I have no experience living in Bali, I have been many times and I have also read many threads about "corruption" and bribing officals and so on. I guess I'm trying to say that I don't want to turn this thread into a discussion about the possibility/morality of bribing or not bribing officials once rules have been broken, but rather, what the actual rules are? I would have no intention of working illegally with the option of bribing my way out of a situation if "caught". (Not that you were suggesting I would or should...) Ok...I admit it is a fine line because I WOULD do volunteer work on a social visa and I guess your point may be that I could be asked for money for someone to look the other way...hmmm....
sj

 

[Roy]

I wouldn’t worry one bit about doing unpaid volunteer work on any sort of visa, even a tourist visa. I’ve had this conversation before, both with my lawyer and immigration officials and the response has always been the same.

The intention of the “no work” aspect of visas is to protect jobs and favor employment opportunities for Indonesian citizens. The visa regulations regarding no work are not intended to restrict un-paid or non profit volunteer or charity work, even though these laws and regulations do not specifically mention this as being excluded.

I was also told that the regulation was purposely left vague in order to protect the abuse of using charity activity being used as a guise to hide a real intention of producing income or wages.

We could argue the semantics all day long...the law is the law, etc., etc, but it is the interpretation and administration that should be of greatest interest, and in that, nobody is going to be deported from Bali because they were “caught” doing unpaid charity work either on their own, or through an NGO.

I would also not worry about having to pay any bribes to immigration officials along these lines. Bert has already mentioned stories, which I like to call urban legends. Personally I have never heard of one case where anyone performing bona fide un-paid charity work in Bali has either been extorted or deported because of that activity.

 

[Sydjapan]

Roy...as I expected but nice to hear a definitive sounding answer. Thanks!

sj

 

[Jimbo]

Roy...as I expected but nice to hear a definitive sounding answer. Thanks

but wrong...... The law states that no work either paid or unpaid can be carried out without the correct kitas visa. (That is the law not the interpretation of it)

Roy's friends in the immigration office may look the other way and that is fine but you will break the law albeit you may well get away with it. Non profit organisations like NGO's still have to register and their employees have to have Kitas visa's if they are working. Charity organisations like the Rotary club mentioned do not have workers per se.

A lot will depend on what you want to do. Remember only you are responsible for breaking the law and only you will be held accountable...the choice is yours and I offer this advice to counterbalance the rose tinted glasses Roy wears.

 

[BaliLife]

I guess your point may be that I could be asked for money for someone to look the other way...

Yes, that was my point. If there's cloudiness, even though you may not explicitly be in breach, there may be someone trying to exploit your situation.

Ct

 

[milan]

I know the rules and regulations for foreigners in Indonesia are more open and relaxed now so things could be worked out I'm sure.

Just for your information, in my time living in Indonesia as a single girl. I had to let 2 relationships go because the two guys I was involved with were blacklisted for nothing.
It was based on jealousy that something were done sneakily to make it look like they violated the visa. But then, that was Jakarta which is much more strict in my opinion than Bali.

 

[Sydjapan]

Jimbo, I agree with you that the law is the law. Having said that, there are many "interpretations" and each person obviously takes their chances and takes responsibilit y for how they interpet and thereby act....

I was actually thinking more along the lines of Rotary Club type groups. This is why in my original question I was wondering if a group like this offered some kind of documentation that the person was in fact "volunteering" and further, doing some "work" that an Indonesian person can't or mostly likely won't be doing, then perhaps it would matter? Again, if there is so procedure for this, then likely it wouldn't matter or be a feasible idea - it is only my idea or logic.

NGOs and NPOs of any scale tend to have employees of some sort and these positions would/should be visa regulated like any other job, I would agree.

sj

 

[Roy]

Sorry Jimbo, but the reality here is simple...you don’t live in Bali...nor can you definitively offer documented evidence that your “black and white” understanding of the laws or regulations are in fact representative of the reality in which they are administered in Bali! BUT, I can!

This is not the first time you have taken your “set in stone” understanding of the reality of life in a place that you have yet to live.

Frankly, I am less than patient with your comments like,

“Remember only you are responsible for breaking the law and only you will be held accountable...the choice is yours and I offer this advice to counterbalance the rose tinted glasses Roy wears.”

Once you’ve lived here in Bali for a fraction of the years I have, you will have my ear, but in the meantime, let’s be honest, which really should mean, you haven’t ANY first hand knowledge. OK?

I don’t wear “rose tinted glasses” Jimbo, nor am I rolling on the ground and frolicking with Polda or Immigrasi. For once, you just might consider that my advice is far deeper set in a solid foundation than someone else with far less living experience in Bali...which is you.

 

[Roy]

Syd, if you join Rotary, you will have an ID card.

But in truth, you will never have to show it to any immigration officer for the simple reason that you will never be asked to explain your no income volunteer work.

It never ceases to amaze me how some folks (not currently, or ever living on Bali) are so adamant...and erroneously so, about something of which they have absolutely NO first hand knowledge. But...I guess that’s what makes a forum a forum.

Rotary is a GREAT start, and each and every one of the Bali based Rotary clubs are EXCELLENT.

Good luck with your endeavors, and your choices of what you decide to do. Giving back to Bali at least a part of what she has given you is essential, and it is the singular road to successful life on Bali.

 

[Jimbo]

Sorry Jimbo, but the reality here is simple...you don’t live in Bali...

Roy

You are so predicticable, I could have wrote your response myself. There is no Balinese laws only Indonesian ones so your comments about Bali alone are not valid and I have lived and worked here on and off for almost 26 years and have been involved with Visa's as at a managerial level and personal level both Kitas and private.

The best thing to be done and something we both agree on is to get the advice from the professionals. If you want the last word go for it for me it is like taking to a brick wall when it comes to you on visa's and the like where you want to apply your experience rather than the laws of the country you live in.

 

[BaliLife]

Roy, Jimbo.. You're both very handsome men when you argue. Your avatars transform into two masculine warriors, heading into battle. Roy, you've got a bit of the Heston thing going, and Jimbo, you're the Duke through and through.. :wink:

Ct