Feb 15, 2013
484
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Jakarta
In theory the idea is great, but to put it into practice would make bringing the dead back to life look easy. The biggest obstacle would be the matter of taxation. How would that be set up, seeing as there are mixed reasons behind the investments. Some are purely owner in residence type of investment, while others are commercial operations. Then there is the matter of honesty in reporting of the individual "share-holders". The co-ordination would make solving the middle east crisis seem like child play.
 

Markit

Well-Known Member
Sep 3, 2007
9,317
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Karangasem, Bali
Looking after multinational corporations with villa resorts was not the subject in question. Fuck them!


The point of interest is for us simple house "owners" that would possibly like to have a somewhat securer place in the Balinese scheme of things with our little villas and my suggestion was really not meant as a possibility but more as an explanation of the potential areas to be researched into.

I'd be willing to bet no one has ever undertaken a serious and well funded search through the Indonesian legal jungle to find if it can be bent to our mutual advantage.

All the effort seems to be made in the direction of pretending that all is well and we will die before it becomes a problem. This may be true in many cases and frankly I hope it is but I, for one, would really like to stop having to explain to other future "lotus eaters" that there is no option other than trusting "my" Made, Wayan or whatever I also have someone that might inherit these problems.

Whatever is said, pro or con, about the ownership situation here for Bule on Bali it is shitty no matter how you bend it - lets be honest, OK?

My whole point is that it doesn't have to be that way - we thousands of people (yes!) here on the forum (I've met many of you so know of where I speak!) have enormous economic power and are all concerned about the situation. Why not do something?
 

mat

Member
Dec 18, 2008
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Singaraja
We need a leader ! Apart from that I believe that the chairwoman of the mix marriage community on facebook is thinking along similar lines about a pressure group to try to change things in Bali for expat ownership or at least mixed marriage ownership. How do we start? Any ideas?
 

Markit

Well-Known Member
Sep 3, 2007
9,317
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Karangasem, Bali
Put together an interest group and collect the dosh - then off to Thailand to spend it. Sorry only kidding.

As I seem to have started the ball rolling I hesitate to keep on pushing for fear of seeming TOO interested.

Mat what do you suggest? Or Shoggart, Joji, Matsalea, Spicy, Gil, etc?

Anyone else have an idea how to make something out of nothing?
 
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gilbert de jong

Active Member
Jan 20, 2009
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Panji, Singaraja.
"why not do something"....
Even if one would know what, where, and how to change these complicated land/ownership issues,
sometimes it's just better to not step into a 'spotlight', especially if one has a bit of local 'power' (burning bridges and stepping on toes come to mind)..
Taking on a big thing like this, wich even the big political parties now stay away from, might imho not be a smart thing to do without willing to risk a lot more then just 200jt.

Helping someone, an individual person finding his/her way through the maze of possibilities or even introduce to some other people who make it a lot easier, is a lot safer and easier....and sometimes might even get some edammer cheese for the help :)
 
Feb 15, 2013
484
6
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Jakarta
Firstly, if this idea is to take off, this group of "Don Quixotes" must have a name. Nothing provocative, or inflammatory.

Also, before getting going, as long as everyone in the "nominee" situation is aware of the other side of the coin, when making plans to "pressure" the authorities into something they may not be ready to address at this point in time. Up till now, the authorities have been "sort of" turning a blind eye to the current blind-siding of the matter of foreign land ownership in Indonesia in general, and in Bali in particular. All it may take is some "grandstanding" legislator in Bali, or Jakarta to bring things to a premature head, before the the group is in a position to show the positive side of this push to the Balinese in particular. Because, if this is only a one way advantage, an "I win, you lose" situation for the foreign owner, forget the plan. It must show there is a benefit to the Balinese people.


Markit: The point of interest is for us simple house "owners" that would possibly like to have a somewhat securer place in the Balinese scheme of things with our little villas and my suggestion was really not meant as a possibility but more as an explanation of the potential areas to be researched into.

If it was only simple house owner/occupiers with no profit motive involved, well, would a "non profit" organization (yayasan) be able to be converted to cover this? Just remember though, a yayasan is treated almost the same as a PT. (limited liability company) as far as reporting to the taxation department goes. Sounds rather too complicated.

What about a PMA company with all the share-holders being house owner/occupiers, and each house owner/occupier being a branch of the company? But each branch would have to ensure they fulfill the taxation requirements.


Mat: We need a leader ! Apart from that I believe that the chairwoman of the mix marriage community on facebook is thinking along similar lines about a pressure group to try to change things in Bali for expat ownership or at least mixed marriage ownership. How do we start? Any ideas?

Thats bloody good idea mat, maybe that should be the first thing to do, a leader, or group to head all this up, and then contact with the mixed marriage community and see what they are thinking/doing in this direction.


AAHHHH coprolite!!! The longer I go on the deeper my bullshit gets. These are just a few ideas that come to mind. I am sure i have holes as big as the graf zepplin in my ramblings. Looking for devil advocates here.
 

Dunaden

Member
Nov 18, 2012
174
0
16
Noosa Heads
Can anyone give me an insight into the "over contract" phrase when looking at property for sale-I've found one that says 15years+ 10 already negotiated....is there anyway to get a new lease done up when you purchase this etc? Or is it a closed case? I thought it was just 20 or 25 years terms? And how does the renewal etc work-can they just "bend you over" and say -" this is the new rate!".
 

ferdie

Member
Apr 4, 2013
677
2
16
Near Ubud
Can anyone give me an insight into the "over contract" phrase when looking at property for sale-I've found one that says 15years+ 10 already negotiated....is there anyway to get a new lease done up when you purchase this etc? Or is it a closed case? I thought it was just 20 or 25 years terms? And how does the renewal etc work-can they just "bend you over" and say -" this is the new rate!".
I think the phrase "over contract" refers to handing over and existing contract to other party, so its a situation where the renter offers a third party to continue the contract on whats left on the rental agreement.
Either its 25, 20, 15 or 10 years is up to both party right, there's no standard on the rental period:icon_neutral:

If you decided to take over the rent, you could always renegotiate the contract with the owner, but that is unrelated with the existing contract and the owner might not be willing to renegotiate or he might put a different rate for the extension unless there is a clause for price/rate of extension on the existing rental agreement.
 

ironhawk

New Member
Jul 16, 2013
5
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1
Hi, I'm new to this forum. I just want to say thanks for all the tips and advices in this and other threads as they are very helpful in planning my own project to build a small villa in Ubud.
 

Markit

Well-Known Member
Sep 3, 2007
9,317
1,110
113
Karangasem, Bali
Welcome to the forum, stay and read a while - specially if you're taking the step of building - why Ubud? There are so many nicer places with cheaper prices - you must hate your money.

Or love all those old ladies "looking for love in all the wrong places" :icon_e_biggrin:
 

terrys

New Member
Aug 9, 2013
3
0
1
Great post currently looking for a price of paradise and will use everyone's input.
Cheers
Terry
 

brendaq

New Member
Aug 28, 2014
4
0
1
Can someone then tell me, in simple steps, how do you buy land in Bali, as a foreigner? Is it not possible to legally do so and be completely safe? Is the only option to lease land or property?
 
Can someone then tell me, in simple steps, how do you buy land in Bali, as a foreigner? Is it not possible to legally do so and be completely safe? Is the only option to lease land or property?

By LAW foreigners can NOT OWN land on private name.
Leasehold safest way.
- > a lot do contracts through "nominee". Guess 95% goes well but try read some of the problems can rise whee through pressure or blackmailing foreigner just need sell cheap or even loose all investment
 

brendaq

New Member
Aug 28, 2014
4
0
1
Maybe not for me then.

By LAW foreigners can NOT OWN land on private name.
Leasehold safest way.
- > a lot do contracts through "nominee". Guess 95% goes well but try read some of the problems can rise whee through pressure or blackmailing foreigner just need sell cheap or even loose all investment

I cannot afford to take the risk, but I would love to buy a small villa in Bali.
 

Cisco Kid

Member
Oct 24, 2015
56
5
8
building on Mark's excellent comment...

This piece by Mark is one of the best I've seen.
But there are maybe, two or three additional points that I'd like to make for reader-benefit.
Mark's ¶¶ 6-15 all relate to what should be a mandatory land due diligence examination. Do your land due diligence (LDD) before making any payment. If some kind of token payment might be necessary, have your notaris sign an escrow agreement and keep the funds until the LDD checks out and then pay the seller. The LDD ought to entail a boundary line confirmation survey done by an off-duty BPN surveyor with his GPS device. In the last 4 years most of the time we have done this, the property ends up being significantly bigger, owing to the greater measurement precision of satellite technology. The old surveys done with transits and strings were nearly always erroneous to some degree. Then once the survey either re-defines or confirms the boundary lines, have BPN sink their concrete posts in all corners. Pay a bit extra for the kind with the re-bar feet radiating out from the bottom of the post which are impossible for anyone to pull up and move later, with concrete poured all around those feet underground. The LDD also should require sighting the original ownership certificate; not a copy. A red flag goes up if the seller cannot produce the original. It most probably means the bank has it. And make sure the seller gives you a certificate from the kepala desa (village chief) that the land is eligible for a residential construction permit (IMB or ijin bangunan). Make sure the land taxes are all paid up and there are no set-backs or easements you need to know about.
Once the land parcel passes the LDD exam, our office always advocates getting the land out of the seller's name immediately. Problem is, the seller and his family will never consider that they have alienated the property no matter what papers they agree to sign. There is this inherent conflict of interests which you don’t need. So loan the sale price to a 3d party, disinterested, Indonesian borrower who buys the land in his/her name. You secure the debt with a mortgage which records your name on the certificate as mortgagee. This gives you the right to hold on to the original ownership certificate and prevents the buyer from selling/leasing the property out from under you for the term of the loan. Nothing at all unlawful about this. We've been doing them for the last 18 years after being the first on Bali to employ this security device for foreigners. If there were something illicit about this procedure, you wouldn't find any notaris who would handle the transaction, nor would BPN record those mortgages. All is totally transparent and does not violate the letter of Indonesian law.
Mark's obviously well-intentioned comments in his ¶¶3 & 4 don't square with my own personal experience or applicable law. Before I married an Indonesian woman in 1994, we heard this same scary story. So we went to see the lawyers at the Ministry of Justice in Jakarta about it. They said it was totally untrue that an Indonesian would ever lose his/her land ownership rights by entering a mixed marriage with or without a pre-nup agreement. So sans pre-nup we married and bought land in her name several times without any problems. Her name was recorded on the certificate at BPN. The Indonesian Constitution didn’t make a citizen’s land rights contingent upon not marrying a foreigner. There’s no law that backs this up. Yet stories like this still go around like the Holy Grail.

If any reader needs to have any of this further explained I would be only to pleased to address any questions.
 

davita

Well-Known Member
Mar 13, 2012
4,441
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Hi BBBSFH and welcome to the forum.
Your first post was very informative but this sentence has me confused.
"The Indonesian Constitution didn’t make a citizen’s land rights contingent upon not marrying a foreigner. There’s no law that backs this up."


In an article some years ago Rainy Hendriany, a prominent legal opinion on foreigner's affairs, said the following....

"The only semi-exception to this is that should a foreigner marry an Indonesian citizen, providing that a pre-nuptial agreement (Usually referred to in Indonesia as a Separation of Assets) is entered into PRIOR to registration of the marriage, then the Indonesian spouse may hold Hak Milik land title."

Also Wijaya...another prominent legal office ...write this on their website...

'As for mixed-marriage couples in Indonesia, a prenuptial agreement is highly recommended. This is the ultimate legal solution to get around the issues that have been around since 1960. The Basic Property Law imposed legal constraints in property ownership for an Indonesian married to a foreigner. Furthermore, referring to the Marriage Law assuming joint property ownership in every marriage registered under Indonesian laws, conducted by Indonesian(s), or voluntarily submits to the Indonesian legal system. The joint property ownership requires consent from your spouse in the event you are performing any legal action in relation to the marital property. As foreigners are not allowed to own property in Indonesia, such consent cannot be retrieved because the foreign partner is not in the legal position to give it to his/her spouse in the first place. This makes perfect sense. So, you're stuck between the statutory requirements for consent, and the ineligibility of your foreign partner to produce it for you.'

Both those articles, and many others I've read, seem to contradict your above statement. In addition, there is an Association of WNI married to foreign spouses that are currently petitioning the Constitutional Court to amend this marriage law which prevents them purchasing Hak Milik, without having a pre-nup. I cannot believe the Constitutional Court would even hear their case (2 hearings already) if the law did not exist.

I'm aware of many WNI, usually female, married to a foreign spouse, who use their maiden name to buy 'Hak Milik' and not disclose...I just wonder the penalty if caught.
 
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Cisco Kid

Member
Oct 24, 2015
56
5
8
Davita, Please see my -->> line item responses to your welcome remarks, below:

Hi BBBSFH and welcome to the forum.
Your first post was very informative but this sentence has me confused.
"The Indonesian Constitution didn’t make a citizen’s land rights contingent upon not marrying a foreigner. There’s no law that backs this up."

In an article some years ago Rainy Hendriany, a prominent legal opinion on foreigner's affairs, said the following....

"The only semi-exception to this is that should a foreigner marry an Indonesian citizen, providing that a pre-nuptial agreement (Usually referred to in Indonesia as a Separation of Assets) is entered into PRIOR to registration of the marriage, then the Indonesian spouse may hold Hak Milik land title."

-->> Far be it from me to challenge such a highly regarded professional as Bali Notaris Rainy Hendriany, however I believe it is fair to say that (a) it is her opinion and interpretation of the law, rather than the law itself, that is on the table here and (b) thousands of Indonesians who have foreign spouses with no pre-nup, freely buy and sell land every day, without penalty or disruption, and have done so since the '60's. In the entire 30 years I've been studying legal matters here, not one of those conveyances has ever been overturned or even questioned. You raise a good point that, assuming there is such a law, it is easily circumvented by the simple expedient of the Indonesian spouse buying land in her maiden name. But surely if he/she were in a mixed marriage without a pre-marital agreement, and there was a law precluding his/her land ownership under those circumstances, no notaris would officiate the akte jual beli, given his lawful duty as a quasi government land official to inquire of his client as to his/her marital status. And does not the recordation by BPN of the sertifikat hak milik in the name of the Indonesian married to a bule, carry the conclusive legal presumption of legitimacy? And ought we not to consider that even IF there were such a law, that its abject lack of enforcement relegates it to the de facto status of non-existence?

Also Wijaya...another prominent legal office ...write this on their website...'As for mixed-marriage couples in Indonesia, a prenuptial agreement is highly recommended. This is the ultimate legal solution to get around the issues that have been around since 1960. The Basic Property Law imposed legal constraints in property ownership for an Indonesian married to a foreigner.

-->> Legal citation conspicuously omitted. Lawyers love advocating pre-marital agreements as another way to earn fees.

Furthermore, referring to the Marriage Law assuming joint property ownership in every marriage registered under Indonesian laws, conducted by Indonesian(s), or voluntarily submits to the Indonesian legal system. The joint property ownership requires consent from your spouse in the event you are performing any legal action in relation to the marital property. As foreigners are not allowed to own property in Indonesia, such consent cannot be retrieved because the foreign partner is not in the legal position to give it to his/her spouse in the first place. This makes perfect sense. So, you're stuck between the statutory requirements for consent, and the ineligibility of your foreign partner to produce it for you.'

-->> Legal citation conspicuously omitted. Comment: every foreign spouse of an Indonesian owns a 50% community property interest in property acquired in this Country during the marriage. I don't have a legal citation but being a foreign spouse, my Indonesian lawyer has secured my 50% community property ownership interest in the Denpasar District Court. Mind you it is not formal ownership registered in my name, but is still an enforceable half-interest in terms of use and participation in revenues derived from the land. An interesting footnote or two here: there is also the principle of "community debt" in this jurisdiction. So if you maintain the property or improve it, the other spouse must contribute 50% of that cost too. Second, no bank will lend either spouse funds on the property as collateral without the written consent of both.

Both those articles, and many others I've read, seem to contradict your above statement. In addition, there is an Association of WNI married to foreign spouses that are currently petitioning the Constitutional Court to amend this marriage law which prevents them purchasing Hak Milik, without having a pre-nup. I cannot believe the Constitutional Court would even hear their case (2 hearings already) if the law did not exist.

-->> If you have copies of any documents from this case or even the case no., please let me have it. In return, when I examine the complaint and determine the actual statutory basis of Plaintiffs' claim for relief, I shall likewise share it with you or anyone else. But my hunch is, the ConCourt will dismiss the case for lack of a claim upon which relief can be granted. But I very much want to read the record of this proceeding and follow it every step of the way. Any feedback on the case no. or other reference to this action, would kindly oblige.

I'm aware of many WNI, usually female, married to a foreign spouse, who use their maiden name to buy 'Hak Milik' and not disclose...I just wonder the penalty if caught.

-->> I have never heard of anyone "getting caught" for owning land while married to a bule w/o a pre-nup. And can you imagine the infinite chaos that would result from such selective, random enforcement? Literally millions of SHM's would be nullified, billions of dollars lost and an international outcry of retroactive/selective enforcement, instability of this Country's already beleagured legal system, etc., etc. So again I refer back to my above statement that even if there were such a statute, its total lack of enforcement during a 50 year window, gives it the de facto status of non-existence.

-->> I am guided always by an unrequieted objective to know exactly what the law really is based on the black and white and actual first-hand experiences. I am always grateful for any corrections of my opinions or statements. Any and all feedbacking based on legal citations or the equivalent will only serve the greater good in the international community in Indonesia.

Thank you for calling my attention to any percieved innaccuracies.

balisafeharbor
 

davita

Well-Known Member
Mar 13, 2012
4,441
146
63
Thanks for your info...you clearly have legal knowledge which I don't have. I just read news and other's opinion and points of view...much like your opinion.

Recently I did ask, on this forum, if anyone had results from the Association who are currently petitioning the court... but no-one has responded and I haven't heard or read any other feedback....otherwise I would have posted.

My wife's girl friend did ask a notary to convey some land she wished to buy but the notary refused quoting 'as she was married to a foreigner' law prevented this transaction.

I'm well aware of how things are done in Indonesia and not everything is lawful and most laws are ignored till something happens where law enforcers have to 'get off their arse.'
That doesn't mean it will forever be the same....and it appears the foreigner usually loses. The Susi Johnson story comes to mind.