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How Much and Whether to Pay for THE DREAM

Discussion in 'Bali Expat Forum' started by Markit, Jul 29, 2013.

?

Which option is your road to building a happy existence on Bali?

Poll closed Aug 8, 2013.
  1. I won't pay Made anything he helps me out of love.

    2 vote(s)
    13.3%
  2. I'll pay Made when and how much I feel like.

    3 vote(s)
    20.0%
  3. Made will get 5% of anything he assists with.

    2 vote(s)
    13.3%
  4. Made will get 10% of anything he assists with.

    1 vote(s)
    6.7%
  5. Made will get more than 10%

    1 vote(s)
    6.7%
  6. None of the above - please explain your option below.

    6 vote(s)
    40.0%
  1. Markit

    Markit Well-Known Member

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    Most of us wanting to live in Bali have had, or will have in the future, the willing and active help of a friendly Balinese person, our own personal "Made". Be that as simple translator or going all the way to the responsible and trusted position of name-holder nominee for the property we dream of having.

    Again and again I have come across parties to this agreement that have been very unhappy with their situation - both from the Bule as well as the Balinese side. Each and every time this has happened it was because of the unwritten informality of their agreement and without fail everyone that was a party to it thought they understood what was expected of them and what was to offered.

    They were all disappointed and many were vengeful and angry.

    Therefore in my first attempt at a poll I would like to know from you what kind of agreement you think has the best chance of success for keeping all parties happy and working together successfully. I don't necessarily want to know what you did, but more what you think (with hindsight) would have worked best and would be the way forward in future.

    Thank you in advance.
     
  2. alex margou

    alex margou Member

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    Very interesting poll/idea. But I find it difficult to just pick one of the options offered, other than the last one perhaps.

    How can you put yourself, your house (your home!) your whole existence in Bali into the hands of someone else? Only if there is a HUGE amount of trust - and that takes years to build up - in my case over 10 years before I finally came to Bali to live. One has to become, in a sense, part of the family and share in their joys and griefs (and in the expenses of such!). Many years back the head of the family, the grandfather died. For his cremation, and all the many ceremonies that went with it over a few weeks, I naturally handed over a few million - the rest of the family were paying - I did too. But nobody asked!

    Little children in the family that I knew who were at SD over 20 years ago are now getting married - weddings don't come cheap - in Bali, or anywhere else for that matter. And I could discuss other things here as well - the grandmother's kitchen that I have known all these years - a horrible dark black smoky wood burning furnace - now rebuilt, repainted and equipped with a nice modern clean LPG stove - the family (all her children) chipped in - I did to.

    Maybe perhaps the 2nd choice above is closest to my situation, but I don't choose it as the word "pay" is not quite right for my situation. Perhaps my wording would be:

    I join in the family's expenses .... when and how much I feel like.

    Hope it helps!
     
    #2 alex margou, Jul 29, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2013
  3. alex margou

    alex margou Member

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    If I'm correctly understanding what I'm reading, this thread has had "1 replies | 107 view(s)".

    It's also had Voters: 2 .

    So 105 folks have come here, had a butchers', and buggered off without voting.

    Too difficult to 'click' a little button?
     
  4. Georgie

    Georgie Member

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    "None of the above - please explain your option below".

    I don't have a 'Made'. nor do I intend to have a 'Made'.
    Just like in a any country I do not do business with friends or family, it's got me this far, successfully.
    I do make friends through their business, by being a regular customer etc.
    But there is no way that I would do any business with friends or family, especially family (family can be the worst as I have seen many fail from this type of business relationship, and it's hard to pre-warn someone without being seen as cold).
    I keep business as business and it must be in writing or else.
    I know people on this forum do a pre-nup with their wives, so I presume they do a contract with a "Made"..... or maybe not.
     
    F18 likes this.
  5. Markit

    Markit Well-Known Member

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    Frankly, that's an answer too isn't it? Don't worry, nobody knows how you voted. It's secret.

    "I'm interested enough to look but whooooooh! have an opinion? Scary!".

    Buncha pussies are probably waiting to see how most people vote and then come down on that side...?

    Makes me wonder why I bother.
     
  6. alex margou

    alex margou Member

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    Now it's 4 votes!!!!!! ........ and 122 views So 118 folks who ..............


    Maybe it's time for Bintang?

    Cheers!
     
    #6 alex margou, Jul 30, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2013
  7. ferdie

    ferdie Member

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    Right now :"None of the above - please explain your option below".

    My family had one of those "mades" that we trusted and help financially about a decade ago in Bali but it backfired in the end and he screwed us big time.

    Learning from that experience, we change the approach differently, we took care everyone around us but not by handing out money anymore.
    There's always other way to help others and show that you care, so money is the last resort in our view now
    And last but not least, I separate personal life and business like @georgie, we paid things normally as agreed in any agreement but will definitely bargain before anything sets on paper
     
    F18 likes this.
  8. spicyayam

    spicyayam Well-Known Member

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    Are you just talking about nominee agreements?

    If so, then I think you need to get everything in writing to avoid any kind of misunderstanding in the future. Usually when the deal is first struck everyone is happy and not even thinking of problems down the road. I know of a foreigner for example who paid their nominee a fee. Unfortunately no actual agreement was made and then when there is a bit of a disagreement between the 2 parties, the foreigner said the "fee" was not a payment, but a "loan" and expected the money back.

    Georgie has good advice, but I think it is hard in Bali to separate business and friendship. I run a business with my wife which certainly has its challenges. I am the boss but I have to get my wife's permission to say so.
     
  9. mrsgabry

    mrsgabry Member

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    Hi all,
    we never considered the nominee option. Way to risky. Although we have a Made who has been a big help for us in many things and would for sure have been our nominee if we had asked him. We went with a leasehold so everything is in our name and legal (as far as anything can be considered legal in Bali). The leasehold goes for another 50 years (there was a special agreement with the landowner 15 years ago) so if after maybe 20 years when we cannot make the long trip from Europe to Bali anymore we still can sell the remaining 30 years. And the property could be converted to freehold any time for an extra fee so if a new owner wants to do so he can.
    For us this was the perfect solution.
     
  10. Markit

    Markit Well-Known Member

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    Well thanks all those that answered and for all those that lurked, you probably now have a better idea of the problems with the "system" here on Bali.

    It's a pity more of those living here didn't put down their thoughts then we could have all learned from the experience but for now it seems that "Made" is still a problem that no amount of friendship, love or pay will resolve into a mutually beneficial, stable and secure relationship.

    Maybe that's just asking too much out of people?
     
  11. Smoke

    Smoke Active Member

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    Kinda hard to say .I not have property yet but always have an eye open for it ( yes cash in hand if need be) do you know anyone that lost big at the chicken fights

    But would this property be just for my living or would I also lease it out or both I would think they should get a piece of the lease .

    Hard to estimate a % as maybe 200,000 usd and 1.5 million usd makes a huge difference in percents just my 50 rupiahs
     
  12. joji gulapetis

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    It should never be brought down to a matter of friendship when there is a huge discrepancy financially between the people involved. NEVER mix business and friendship (or with family/relatives). In 99.99% of the cases you will end up losing both money and friendship (and family/relatives ..... ).

    Have everything down in writing in front of a Notaris, stamped, and signed. If your friend is offended and says "Beli ngak percaya ama says?" then hang onto your dompet mate,he is not really your friend.

    About the amount of the payment, each case will differ. A fee of 5% for a small land transaction is ok, but totally out of line for a large transaction. And 10% or more? I shudder to think what he had to do for that amount. Notary fees are usually 1% but can be negotiated for large transactions.

    I can only offer this advice. Talk and agree about renumeration for services BEFORE the fact, and you will save yourself a lot of pain and heartache down the line. If the other party says "Gampang Beli, beres, nanti aja" with a grin on his face, grab your wallet with one hand, your cojones with the other, and haul ass!

    :topsy_turvy:
     
    #12 joji gulapetis, Aug 11, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2013
  13. Markit

    Markit Well-Known Member

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    Joji your words of wisdom will have to remain meaningful to you because me and Google Translate haven't got the foggiest fucking notion what you are on about.

    But I'm sure you meant it well.
     
  14. joji gulapetis

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    And you have been in Bali for how long? :barbershop_quartet_

    Dompet = wallet

    "Beli ngak percaya ama says?" = What, you don't believe me mate?

    "Gampang Beli, beres, nanti aja" = No problems mate, later.

    For any further translations, we have to discuss my fee for my services first.

    :barbershop_quartet_:topsy_turvy:
     
    F18 likes this.
  15. sherm

    sherm Member

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    I consider myself very lucky to have found a family that has adopted me as a member of their family. I often go to their compound, eat what they eat, on the platform with my fingers as they do. 90% of my efforts to help cover costs have been rebuffed, sternly. Ibu calls me almost every day... "sudah makan?", "did you sleep ok?", "what is your program today?"
    I've never been asked for anything beyond "sherm can I use your lighter?"

    The only way I have found to contribute that they accept is to have the husband as my driver who I pay customary rates for transport.

    Ibu is constantly warning me on land purchase saying most bule do not do due diligence. They both say 'always go slowly' in business matters or even on my motorbike.

    If I choose to one day purchase they will be my partners, if not I always have a place to stay whenever I come for an extended visit. They want nothing from me but being with them. I am very lucky. Saya jujur.
     
  16. dav733

    dav733 New Member

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  17. samsiam

    samsiam Member

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    I didn't vote ... just here for the comments ... didn't read the poll either
     
  18. F18

    F18 New Member

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    Likewise for me. I didn't actually lose money, but I didn't make any on my several hundred thousand $$ investments over 5+ years. If I'd put that in the share market back home I'd have made dividends of close to $130,000, and probably some significant capital gains, so in theory, I did lose.

    I know the profit on the properties 'we' owned was considerable, but they sold (on paper) for a lot less than what they should have. The secret commissions, communication in Balinese (rather than Indonesian [which I can understand]), closed ranks in the village, people dropping by telling me they'd done things (nothing done), on the properties (no doubt in collusion with the partner) and needed payment , and the gross greed of the Balinese when they see a foreigner wanting to do business all contributed to an unsatisfactory outcome. I'd known the partner for 20+ years before entering into any business dealings.

    Nowadays I don't own anything, have no local 'partners', stay in hotels, hire cars and motorbikes, employ nobody, and enjoy Bali infinitely more than I otherwise would have.
     
    #18 F18, Jan 9, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
  19. davita

    davita Well-Known Member

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    I hope recent contributors to this thread realize they are answering members who posted over 4 years ago and most haven't been seen since, except smoke...he's languishing in Kerobokan prison and might welcome some contributions.
     
  20. F18

    F18 New Member

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    I did realize that, but adding a little fuel to the 'don't do business in Bali' fire can't be a bad thing if anybody stumbles on it.

    What's smoke in the big house for??
     
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