Liesna

New Member
Jun 29, 2010
19
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1
Hi,
We are a mixed couple and are having a bitter experience in a village here where we bought a land two years ago. We did process the IMB (building permit) including the signed agreement of the Kelian adat and Dinas+ the signature of the neighbors . Started the building of our dream and once the construction was half way, the kelian adat came up saying we have to stop building. The Masyarakat (citizens of that village) want us to pay a fee for the cost of the asphalt road because we didn t participate to it s construction 20 years ago...It s ending up in a little crew of people deciding that we should : 1/ paying a fee of 3000$ because we bought a land and we are not from that village, 2/ paying a fee of 2500$ because we use that road (Swadaya) , 3/having to sign an agreement so that we cannot rent our house or pay them if we do rent our house. And 4/if we build up more in our land, we will also pay an extra fee of 2500$. We are the first foreigners to buy a land there (Jawa is considered as a foreign country apparently). All this in the name of the ADAT ...for a law that a little team decided last month and effective, anytime before that. I forgot to mention that if our friends come, we would pay the Kelian adat 50.000 per person per night. And the last one: if we don t respect one of the points above, this `contract` is cancelled.
It doesn t make no sense, but the result is that they misuse the term adat to suck money out of us threatening us to block the road. Eventhough they decided this 6 months after we got the IMB, they say this is not preman (mafia) but ADAT.
Any suggestion other than a riot gun?
 

Liesna

New Member
Jun 29, 2010
19
0
1
SIze of our house

One more point that I forgot to mention: our permit IMB is for a `rumah tinggal` (house) of 4 bedrooms only. Not a hotel of dozens or hundreds rooms...
 

Peter Ka

Member
Mar 31, 2010
151
0
16
These "fees" are ridiculous. However, you are now a part of that community, so I would contribute something. Perhaps a few Rp million. Hold your foot down on the rental "fees". None of their business.
 

Robin

New Member
Jun 30, 2010
3
0
1
Land Access

Liesna

We are having the same problem, bought a house in a village last november, after the formalities were completed, safety ticket and right of ownership was completed etc access problems arose in January. The village leader informed us that a number of people (they remain annonymous) wanted acces payments as the bridge at the bottom of the access lane belonged to them. This demand also occured after a property under construction at the end of the lane after the bridge and had its access blocked and only reopened after the owner payed a subsantial amount of money, since payment the receivers of the money have disappeared along with the legal advisor.

The access effects several properties and the demand is for Rp 400mil which will increase if not agreed. To compound the problem the immediate land at the main road access has recently been bought and buyer is also looking for access payments. The access at the bridge has already been blocked twice and negotiations are still ongoing. . The question of right of ownership of the access road has been asked and no one will produce paper work to show who owns it, several meetings have ocurred but with as yet no resolution. The people demanding the payment do not show up for the meetings and do not want any legaly binding agreement made by a notary. If there is no legally binding agreement what is to stop these people demanding further payment in the future.

It seems strange that the access issue has arisen only after several properties have been built and the lane has been used for a long time, power utitilies are in place and again look to have been installed for a long period. What someone has to produce is a document detailing what access has been previously granted, access must have been granted in order to build the properties and to install the utilities. One question to be asked is do access rights change on sales of land, does one agreement made by one owner become invalid when sold and can the new owner ask for access payments which may seem to be case on the recent sale at the main rode access, it all seems a grey area and confusing............that is why legal paperwork must be made available which for some reason no one wants to produce

I don't have a problem in paying some money towards the community as we have made our home here and want to be part of and support the village, but what this feels like is being taken advantage of. I can see some of the points of view of some of the villagers as they see properties being built and rented out for the tourism industry with no benefit for the local community, ours is used as full time lived in residential home for my family. What was a dream is turning into a nightmare. Knowing what I know now I would not have made what was a considerable investment and would advise other people to tread warily when buying in Bali.
 

pollyanna

Member
Feb 8, 2010
683
0
16
Ubud, Bali
Robin, We also had to pay for road access. The first person to ask for 7 million rp didn't own the road. He just hoped we would give him 7 million. Then someone else popped up who said she owned the road. We would not pay until we met with her at the notaris' office and she was required to bring her certificate of land ownership with her to the meeting. We also have the paperwork drawn up by the notaris giving us permanent right-of-way over the road.

Liesna, you perhaps should also demand to see the certificate of ownership. If they cannot prove they own the land and continue to block the road why would you not call the police?

Liesna

We are having the same problem, bought a house in a village last november, after the formalities were completed, safety ticket and right of ownership was completed etc access problems arose in January. The village leader informed us that a number of people (they remain annonymous) wanted acces payments as the bridge at the bottom of the access lane belonged to them. This demand also occured after a property under construction at the end of the lane after the bridge and had its access blocked and only reopened after the owner payed a subsantial amount of money, since payment the receivers of the money have disappeared along with the legal advisor.

The access effects several properties and the demand is for Rp 400mil which will increase if not agreed. To compound the problem the immediate land at the main road access has recently been bought and buyer is also looking for access payments. The access at the bridge has already been blocked twice and negotiations are still ongoing. . The question of right of ownership of the access road has been asked and no one will produce paper work to show who owns it, several meetings have ocurred but with as yet no resolution. The people demanding the payment do not show up for the meetings and do not want any legaly binding agreement made by a notary. If there is no legally binding agreement what is to stop these people demanding further payment in the future.

It seems strange that the access issue has arisen only after several properties have been built and the lane has been used for a long time, power utitilies are in place and again look to have been installed for a long period. What someone has to produce is a document detailing what access has been previously granted, access must have been granted in order to build the properties and to install the utilities. One question to be asked is do access rights change on sales of land, does one agreement made by one owner become invalid when sold and can the new owner ask for access payments which may seem to be case on the recent sale at the main rode access, it all seems a grey area and confusing............that is why legal paperwork must be made available which for some reason no one wants to produce

I don't have a problem in paying some money towards the community as we have made our home here and want to be part of and support the village, but what this feels like is being taken advantage of. I can see some of the points of view of some of the villagers as they see properties being built and rented out for the tourism industry with no benefit for the local community, ours is used as full time lived in residential home for my family. What was a dream is turning into a nightmare. Knowing what I know now I would not have made what was a considerable investment and would advise other people to tread warily when buying in Bali.
 

Liesna

New Member
Jun 29, 2010
19
0
1
The limiation of the term ADAT

Thanks for your support. I went to the Kantor Dinas today and they say it has nothing to do with them, they don t have such rules. It concerns the adat. For thoses who don t know: Dinas office is for matters relating the state (pemerinta) and the Adat is related to the traditions and religious matters.
So, the Kelian Adat is too weak to take any responsibilities and the little group of five young businessmen are deciding int the name of the whole village and, as they can t ask anything by law, they use the sacred word : ADAT. Whoever oppose the adat is an enemy of the village.

I went to the top leader of the province of Gianyar and told him I wanted to learn about the Adat in Bali. He spoke 30 minutes about the religion in detail and the social contribution of each citizen (a few kilos of rice or sugar, and at most, a few thousands rupiah of cash for the ones who want).
Nothing to do with access road or business share or lands bought or sold...

I love Bali and bring to Bali billions I earn abroad to the citizens while europe is in deficit. If the Kepala adat allows things like this to happen, it turns their beautiful culture and religion into a mere racist mafia. If you didn t notice yet, jealousy is the virus on this island.

I ll keep you informed and promise to mention names on facebook and national TV station if the terror continue.
 

Liesna

New Member
Jun 29, 2010
19
0
1
These "fees" are ridiculous. However, you are now a part of that community, so I would contribute something. Perhaps a few Rp million. Hold your foot down on the rental "fees". None of their business.

Sure, I am willing to contribute and asphalt 30 meters of road that most of them use everyday to `compensate` , the little team replied that as I will also use that road, it s not fair :icon_lol:
Plus I do agree on giving 100kg of rice every 6 months (cash rice of course).
 

Liesna

New Member
Jun 29, 2010
19
0
1
no police, no lawyer....

I can only feel for you. I wish I could help but this needs a lawyer or at least someone who can represent you in this matter.

Some Balinese reply that the adat is above the law, so ...no police, no lawyer.
the second meeting I had with them started this way: `we took a decision that we are going to read now, and you cannot negociate` (in Indonesian of course). Did I mention that the fee of 3000$ was to `welcome` us in the village? As I explained above, I just went to the `ketua Adat`of the province today as the Kelian adat doesn t seems to be able to handle this case and the wishes of a bunch of young godfathers.
 

ronb

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2007
2,241
56
48
Ubud, Bali
Liesna, it's a bit of a horror story. I don't have an magic answer. But when, in a market, absurd prices are asked, and the vendor won't negotiate, you walk away. Here because of your investment so far it is difficult to walk away, and they know this and think therefore they can win.

So for sure you should be seeking to find whether you can undermine them perhaps by finding influential people that can help. But while you are doing this, I would also heed the advice of the Adat and stop the construction, and make it look like you may indeed walk away. If they get the feeling they may actually get nothing, then they may be willing to consider smaller amounts.

Also, if you do have the flexibility to pause the project for a year or so, its possible that this particular group will lose respect and power in the village.

Anyhow, I wish you luck in your endeavours - and hope some breakthrough occirs.
 

dedoo

New Member
Jun 5, 2010
15
0
1
What village in Gianyar are you having this problem? I could maybe help you out with this problem.
 

Robin

New Member
Jun 30, 2010
3
0
1
Land Access

Liesna
Yes, youv'e hit the nail on the head, alot of the problem is due to jealousy and greed. I'm told that that Bali was not always like this and that it is a recent event. After reading the forum I thought our situation was an isolated incident but I can see that it is a more widespread problem. Seems this does not happen in already established built up areas, main towns but has arisen with the development of rural village land. You find yourself dealing with village leaders and groups who appear to be a law to them selves and the police and goverment don't want to deal with it, but saying that we have had the police down once to open the access..

One step that has been taken in our is to get owners of the affected properties into an action group so we have a joint response so we are all united on this, something that had not happened previously. This was no mean feat as some properties are company managed and difficult to track down. For them no access means no income, but the bottom line is we all want to get the situation resolved.

From what you say it looks like they are hiding behind a religous ruling the ADAT which I can't comment on as I don't know enough about it but the bottom line is they have to comply with the law of the country, so they have to produce valid documents otherwise its all a mockery. As they are pushing we should push as well and also not just agree to anything, everthing is negotiable. They may think that because we have already made a big investment they have the upper hand but that is not the case. Putting the problem in the newspapers or the TV is bad press for them and bali as it will effect investment in the island.

Our group have a meeting soon so I will keep you informed and updated on what we are doing and how things progress
 
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Liesna

New Member
Jun 29, 2010
19
0
1
know your rights

Hi,
The main problem is the way some Balinese want to treat us with a shocking discrimination. It is an offense to the human rights of every being and I feel like my responsibility here is to let them know there are some limits, especially when they have no legal power. This is an offense to the adat Bali and make the whole Balinese community look bad. I appreciate them and can t let this happen.
 

Liesna

New Member
Jun 29, 2010
19
0
1
Dear Dedoo and Robin,
Thanks for your support. I don t want to name the place in detail because this might affect the reputation of their whole community and except for the 5 people i spoke about, so far, they do not deserve this.
I m in, Robin, if you have a meeting, let us know.
If someone like a girl, it doesn t give him the right to rape her. If you like a car, it doesn t give you the right to steal it. Eventhough the girl is beautiful and the owner of that car the richest man on the planet.
 

PeteD

Member
Oct 22, 2007
36
0
6
Indo
Hmmmm... What a sad state of affairs. Unfortunately this happens far too often and it's disgusting how regularly they get away with it.

The statement that it's only recently Balinese behave like this is so untrue. Throughout the years it's well known there can be a very nasty underlying character to some local Balinese people, whether it stems from greed or jealousy who knows. If you think it's isolated to foreigners you'd be wrong, and yes the Balinese do, very ignorantly, count non Balinese Indonesians as foreigners too. The fact is the ones with this character fault will generally behave that way to whoever, neighbours, family members, etc, it's just foreigners tend to speak more openly about it.

The fact is Desa Adat and it's organisation in general has in many areas developed into a group of individuals that lack any understanding of other people's beliefs and rights to live in peace. It's either their outdated ideals and enforcement of made up unreasonable rules that you have to agree to or you are branded a Bali hater and told to "go back to your own country", then threatened with death or house burning. At the heart of things they are really cowards that only act out in groups by extorting and threatening good people.

The suggestion Robin makes sounds sensible on the surface of things, getting a group of the other property owners may have a better affect when negotiating with the lowly characters. But be sure, even if things seem to go well with new negotiation, they can always harbour vindictive hateful feelings, so it may turn out to be a long term problem.

It's so frustrating having to deal with these types of things and it's very sad such people are allowed to operate with such impunity, and it's terrible in many of these same situation the police are either powerless (by choice) or themselves afraid to go against the Deas Adat.

P.S. A note to anyone interested in buying land in Bali. Please double and triple check the access to your land. It's actually against the law to sell land without access, but that means nothing. It's always the safest bet to have the road access on your certificate. Never ever rely on informal agreements, with neighbouring land owners to give right of access through their property!
 

Liesna

New Member
Jun 29, 2010
19
0
1
Dear Pete,

I have checked the access as well in the BPN and discussed that with the Kelian adat and Dinas before. There were no more hidding cost to pat they said...except a usual pemopog that they couldn t calculate before we build a house....All of a sudden, the calculation came clear a month after we started to build and it became urgent to pay if we wish to continue.
The kepala desa already signed the IMB and before him the Kelian Dinas and Kelian Adat.
Sooooooo disgusting, they do believe it is a `normal` behavior telling me us is cheap!!!! in the next village they would charge you 20 000 euros as a welcome fee . Beautiful island isn t it ?
 

Robin

New Member
Jun 30, 2010
3
0
1
PeteD

Thanks for the input, yes a sad state of affairs and also to hear that this is indeed not a new problem. The concern as you rightly say is that the problem will fester if we reach a favourable conclusion
and it is something we have all discussed, so we are very aware with what we are doing and tread carefully.

Indeed since the problem has arisen there have been a spate of burglaries, whether its by local people is not known as they have not been caught........the police are useless and also the properties security who are local Balinese which tells you something. All the burglaries have been carried out by groups of around 10 people so you stand no chance, its like a terror campaign to force you to pay up or force you out.. The latter may be what eventually happens, sell up and get out.

With our access problem we found out that access rights were granted in 2002 and there is legal paperwork to prove it, but this seems to stand for nothing with the locals............just a bunch who are a law to them selves and legal agreements stand for nothing. As you say the police dont want to get involved and the local leader was not happy when they were called the first time the access was blocked.

Its sad they behave like this and how they treat foriegners and indonesians, the latter I can only summise is because the central government is in Jakarta, whether its religous, cultural or historical I don't know as I don't know enough about the background. But you find similar problems in other parts of Indonesia.
.
 

tintin

Well-Known Member
Sep 13, 2005
2,305
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23
Boston, MA, USA
Forget about these extortionists

Liesna, pollyanna, Robin,

These "fees" are ridiculous. However, you are now a part of that community, so I would contribute something. Perhaps a few Rp million. Hold your foot down on the rental "fees". None of their business.

Sorry, Peter, but I TOTALLY disagree with you: Liesna, polloyanna, and Robin are NOT part of the "community," and never will be. What kind of "community" is this anyway? It's sounds to me more like a bunch of extortionists. Who, in his/her right mind would want to live in the midth of such a "friendly" community and be proud of it?

I would NEVER summit to such blackmail: the Adat is one thing, grand theft is something else. Obviously you are not welcome in this village. In your position, I'd call it a lost (and a life's lesson), and I would pack-up and leave in a wink. There are plenty of other villgaes in Bali where the villagers do not behave in such mercenary manner. When living in a village, being part of the community is everything, but in such community...: you might as well be living in Central Los Angeles or in Katanga Province...And if you persist in wanting to stay in such a surrounding of thieves, be prepare for more down the line: blackmailers never have enough, and, I am sorry to say to you, you'll deserve what you'll get.

PS. PeterD is right: this is certainly NOT a new phenomenon. Since my firts time in Bali, in 1984, I have heard and had personally some close calls myself when I decided to get involved in a Balinese "community."
 
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pollyanna

Member
Feb 8, 2010
683
0
16
Ubud, Bali
Liesna, pollyanna, Robin,

Sorry, Peter, but I TOTALLY disagree with you: Liesna, polloyanna, and Robin are NOT part of the "community," and never will be. What kind of "community" is this anyway? It's sounds to me more like a bunch of extortionists. Who, in his/her right mind would want to live in the midth of such a "friendly" community and be proud of it?

PS. PeterD is right: this is certainly NOT a new phenomenon. Since my firts time in Bali, in 1984, I have heard and had personally some close calls myself when I decided to get involved in a Balinese "community."

Tintin, I have probably miscommunicated. Our village is absolutely lovely. They have been fair and reasonable. There was only one man who tried to get money for a road he didn't own, not our village. And the woman who wanted money for right-of-way or access truly does own the land the road is on. We were happy to pay.
Our friend and nominee has been invaluable in showing us how things work and in acting as the communicator between us and the village. When we first found the land Wayan said the first thing we had to do was meet with the village elders, find out their expectations, and become a part of the community. That is what we have done and continue to do.
Today we have our purification ceremony for the land and the village priest will be one of two priests involved in the ceremony. The village leader will also be there.
Hopefully things will continue in this way and we will be a part of the community for the rest of our lives. We love our village and the Balinese people.