Adat & Banjar fees - what is expected?

niksing

Member
Nov 6, 2006
39
0
6
Kaba Kaba
We have recently moved into our house and have received a couple of bills fom the Banjar and the Adat. I wanted to check what other people's experiences were and whether the amount being asked is reasonable or whether it is ever negotiable.

The bills are:

1. Monthly fee to Banjar - 2kg of rice per person living in the house at 5,000rph per kg
2. One off fee to Banjar - 5 kwintal of rice (500 kg) at 5,000rph per kg (2.5 mill)
3. One off fee to Adat - 1,000kg of rice at 5,000rph per kg (5 mill)

Seems like a lot of rice!!

Are these amounts comparable to what others have paid? We have been told that these are the fees for foreigners living in Bali but before I hand over the amounts wanted to get some idea of others experinces.

Thanks,

Nikki
 

Roy

Active Member
Nov 5, 2002
4,835
1
36
Ubud, Bali
Nikki,

In a word, this is ridiculous! What you are saying is that you are being asked for a one time fee of 7.5 million, PLUS an annual fee based on the number of folks in your house.

While I don’t know how things work in Canggu, I do have 10 years under my belt working within my own banjar of Bunutan outside of Ubud. So, maybe some insights I’m happy to share will be useful for you.

First of all, there is NO such thing as a “legal” fee which can be levied upon a foreigner living in any particular village or banjar, BUT, there is the “practical fee” which if a foreigner pays, should allow for many banjar privileges, including (for a lack of a better word), a neighborhood watch (village satpam security) and “hands off” by what might otherwise be called “juvenile delinquents.”

Secondly, I truly hope you have a very close relationship already with at least one male member of adat within Canggu. If not, this is essential, as you need an advocate to spread the word that you are “OK” can be trusted, just there to live and let live and have no intentions of being a problem. Tied into this is another essential thing, that being to meet, and get to know the current village head. Call on him, (if you haven’t already) and bring the traditional Balinese gifts of rice, coffee and sugar. For extra impact, throw in a carton of cigarettes...any brand will do.

Thirdly, what you have been “told” is in reality just a suggestion which has been expressed in a non monetary fashion. If you comply without discussion, you are setting yourself up for more, more and more down the line. What is going on right now is that you are being “sized up.” The key to winning this game is to show interest and concern with what the village really needs, and that is most unlikely to be 1,500 kilos, (or 3,000 pounds) of beras! What I am getting at here is that in your discussions with the head of the village, explore areas where you can help. For example, is there a temple repair or reconstruction project currently going on that you could contribute to. How about the schools? Do they need some updated books, or even a new roof? Show your respect, but also maintain your own pride and dignity.

It is perfectly normal, IMHO, for the Balinese of any village in Bali to view foreign newcomers with a great deal of suspicion and concern. In reality, why shouldn’t they? During this transitional phase, you may often hear the question often voiced by the kids, “when you go home?” When the questions change to kabar bagus ba pak (or Ibu), you will know your transition is over.

Nikki, the “ball is in your court.” It is up to you, and only you to orchestrate your assimilation. Don’t be afraid to make mistakes, but by all means stay available, open, and willing to be a part of your new village. Every village in Bali has its own unique soul or life as I have come to know. Some villages are far better than others for Westerners to call home. In that regard, seek out as many other expats who have already been living in Canggu for a while and solicit their ideas and thoughts.

My final and most important advice is to go to temple from time to time. Being seen in your village temples is akin to census taking. Trust me, Balinese villagers know who does, and does not show up at temple. No Balinese is ever going to tell you that, but I guarantee that the most effective way of demonstrating that you want to be a part of your new village is by going to temple. This has nothing to do with religion, but it has everything to do with demonstrating that you are doing your best to be a part of your new village. Cheers, and good luck!
 

niksing

Member
Nov 6, 2006
39
0
6
Kaba Kaba
Thanks so much for the explanation Roy. We are quite a way fom Canggu and one of the problems we have is that there are no other foreigners living in our village permanently. There are a couple of others who rent out their villas or live here part time but we are the first to live here permanently, so not really anyone else to ask how they have handled similar issues. We are about 20 minutes form Canggu towards Tanah Lot so nothing else locally to compare.

I have no problem with contributing towards the Banjar and being involved in what is needed here. Can you tell me if it is usual for a fee to be levied form the adat in addition to banjar fees?

I understand the concept of being sized up and we certainly don't want to set any precedents that will lead to future ongoing requests! We have met with the village head but for this fee it is the adat that is requesting the money rather than the banjar. We paid the banjar fee when we first moved in and were a lot "greener" than we are now - certainly still a lot to learn but we are getting there slowly!

The letter they sent requesting the payment is below. From what I can gather in my very poor Indonesian they are stating it is a "voluntary contribution" which I assume means they would like this amount but the amount we actually give to the adat will be up to us. Can you tell me, if we did give a contribution to the adat what is it likely to be used for? I understand that annual payments to the banjar are for security etc (although there is no security in our village!) but not sure what a contribution for the adat would be for.

Thank you again for your suggestions.

"Dengan hormat kami sampaikan kepada bapak bahwa berdasarkan awig-awig (Pararem) desa pekraman Mundeh, barang siapa yang membeli tanah di wewidangan Desa Pekraman Mundeh setelah membangun wajib kena batu-batu adapt sebesar 1 (satu) ton beras dihitung dengan uang 5000/kg menjadi lima juta rupiah ditambah dengan sumbangan sukarela (dana punia) sesuai dengan kemampuan. Demikian kami sampaikan untuk mendapat perhatian dan dipenuhi sebagi mana mestinya."

Nikki
 

Roy

Active Member
Nov 5, 2002
4,835
1
36
Ubud, Bali
Well, we have a lot in common in that I was the first non Balinese to ever move into and live in my village as well. My advantage was of course my Balinese wife, whose village it was that we made our home. That made all the difference, but even so, it wasn’t a piece of cake by any means, as Eri was being pursued by several “Bunutan Bulls” before I showed up and took the prize! Someday I guess I will have to publicly describe the famous “night of the long Dutch sword” that most long time expats in Ubud have heard about in one version or another.

“Can you tell me if it is usual for a fee to be levied form the adat in addition to banjar fees?”

Yes and no is the direct and accurate answer. Yes in that everyone within any particular village is expected to do their part in one way or another in village temple ceremonies and for other needs of the village. For the Balinese, this is most often done by giving their time in preparing offerings, building the temporary structures within the temple (from bamboo), preparing food, and on and on. While there is no official tax per se, there is an accounting to be sure. There is also a very certain fairness to how this all goes about. From very poor families, nothing much more than time is expected, and for those families that are wealthy, more is expected.

The awig-awig, or rule that you quote is an adat rule in your village that basically states that anyone who buys property and builds in that village will pay a fee of one ton (1,000 kilograms) of rice, (priced at 5,000 IDR per kilo), plus whatever else they can afford in order to satisfy the adat rule, or awig-awig. That seems to me a large amount, but these sort of fees vary within the villages in Bali. For example, my father in law was required to donate just 100 kilos when we bought and built our new house. If I were you, I would donate the 5 million and let the Banjar decide how to deal with it. Be sure to get a signed receipt.

You haven’t mentioned specifics about your local contacts within your village. If you don’t have any, and if your spouse isn’t Indonesian, it’s high time you find an advocate within your village to “walk you through” whatever the adat, (which really means the rules) within your banjar. That being said, and assuming for a second that none of you are Indonesian, meaning that you have leased your land, then another point comes up, that being that the owner of the property who leased you the land could, or should (maybe) be the one to pay the 1,000 kilos of rice. Hati hati here though, as you could end up being penny wise, and pound foolish. In my mind, it’s better to appease the banjar and the adat, (secular and religious rules that run within the banjar).

Hamlet comes to my mind. "To be, or not to be: that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or to take arms against a sea of troubles, and by opposing end them?" Trust me, opposing those seas of troubles here, when the tides are directed by the Balinese, will never end up ending them. However, my one night with the long Dutch sword did prove to be most effective in my village.

Cheers and good luck.
 

charlie

Member
Aug 9, 2005
328
0
16
unhappily in sydney
Hi niksing ..

Whereabouts are you?? I lived in Munggu and and most recently Nyanyi for many years, and if you are in or near either of these villages, I may be able to get some advice from my husband for what you should pay ... We never paid as much as what they are asking of you, although my husband is Balinese so that may have some influence ... It also isn't our "home" village so we were expected to pay more but nothing like what you quoted!!

I am the only westerner living and owning a house in Nyanyi, and although I am registered and the village knows i am western, we haven't ever been charged alot ... but we are the first house they come to when selling Bazaar tickets!!

I'll ask Tu tonight or over the weekend ..
 

niksing

Member
Nov 6, 2006
39
0
6
Kaba Kaba
Roy said:
In my mind, it’s better to appease the banjar and the adat, (secular and religious rules that run within the banjar).

Now I am confused Roy!! I took your first post to mean that the chances were we were being sized up and should be cautious before paying anything, and explore other options such as paying for books at school. Then in your second reply you say it is better just to pay. Was there something in the letter I quoted that changed your mind or did I misunderstand your first post?

Neither of us are Indonesian. We are not leasing land - we have a nominee who is not in the village. We have had someone form the village explain to us what the letter means but their perspective is that if the banjar asks you for money you just pay it - they have told us it is not optional and these are the "rules" imposed by the banjar for every foreigner living here.

As I mentioned before I have no problem with paying - to me it seems like the local council and land taxes that we were used to in our life pre Bali - but feel it should be a reasonable amount. I also have no problem with the amount we pay being higher than what Balinese would pay - it seems reasonable to me that some contribute their time, others money, but all are contributing in some way to the community. I just feel like asking for this amount is stretching what is reasonable and despite assurances that this is a one off I am concerned that if we pay it the requests of this nature will continue forever.

Nikki
 

Roy

Active Member
Nov 5, 2002
4,835
1
36
Ubud, Bali
Sorry for all the confusion, but this issue is complex and situations like this have to be considered on a case by case basis.

In my first post, I was not aware that an adat rule was already in place in your village...or so you have been told. In my case, there was no standing, already existing awig-awig for penanjung batu in place concerning this issue, as nobody outside of our village had ever bought or owned property within the village. I was the first. Every Banjar (village) in Bali has its own bi-polar adat covering both religious and secular matters within the Banjar, and each adat has considerable latitude insofar as what they can require.

Your village will be open to the money as opposed to the actual rice being made as payment. This is because within most secular adat, rice is currency. In your letter this is currently valued at 5,000 IDR per kilo, which is actually below current market value of between 6,000 and 7,000...so you would be best to pay in IDR and not rice.

I still believe some negotiating is in order, but if the prior Western owners of property within your village (even as vacation homes) have established a precedent by already paying the full amounts covered in the letter you received, then I doubt you will have much bargaining room.

Now you advise:

“We are not leasing land - we have a nominee who is not in the village.”

As I read the letter, and I had Eri read it as well, this fee is levied on anyone from outside your village (which would include both Balinese as well as non Balinese Indonesians) when property within your village is purchased. This fee would not be paid by other Balinese within your village who purchased other land within your village. Your nominee is obviously Indonesian, and as you say, from outside the village. Obviously your nominee used your funds to buy the land (for your use) and so the village has a point in making the charge as they determine and see fit. Whether you personally or your nominee pays the fee is moot to the village so long as one of you pays it, and that of course boils down to you paying it.

This fee your Banjar is expecting to be paid is not, (as we read the letter) a charge levied because you are a foreigner living in the village, but rather is based on land within the banjar being sold to someone from outside the banjar. This concept (and it is pretty much Bali wide) is to discourage the sale of property within specific Banjars to any outsiders, Balinese or otherwise. That is what penanjung batu is all about.

Eri agrees that the amount you are being told is the awig-awig is high, but the fact is, if that is part of your Banjar adat, then you are stuck with it. Subsequent to my moving to Bunutan an awig-awig for penanjung batu has been put into place and the fee is 100 kilos of rice...or 10% of what you are being told is the penanjung batu for your Banjar.

About all you can do is to find out what the other Westerners have paid...assuming their land was also acquired by a nominee outsider.

Again, sorry for the prior confusion, but until all the details about your situation emerged, it was hard to be very specific. Rather than responding at all, I should have simply asked you specific questions, so I accept the blame for the confusion! Cheers and good luck...and enjoy your new village.
 

niksing

Member
Nov 6, 2006
39
0
6
Kaba Kaba
Thanks for the explanation Roy. Seems that if you are not the first one in a village then you are stuck with whatever the first person agrees to pay - sucks if they were happy to pay a lot and you are not!

What I find difficult to understand is all the different "fees" being charged to us. We paid a donation to the banjar when we first started building and were told that this was the only time we HAD to pay a fee. Then once we moved in there was another "one off" request from the banjar - 2.5 million. Then they told us there was a monthly fee depending on how many people were living in the house - the total they came to included our staff who do not live here and are form the village! We negotiated on that and now just pay the monthly fee for family members. Now they tell us there is another "one off" fee for the adat - they say it is different from the banjar fees as it is paying one level higher up. I wonder how many other "one off" fees will become apparent!

We will find out later today from a couple of neighbours how much they were asked to pay and what they eventually did pay.

Thanks again, appreciate your info!

Nikki
 

Roy

Active Member
Nov 5, 2002
4,835
1
36
Ubud, Bali
It certainly sounds like you are being milked. In that regard, some honest and open discussion with the head of your village is needed.

This kind of thing can really spoil an expat’s experience on Bali. Village “integrity” varies a lot from village to village within Bali, no doubt about that.

You sound like very reasonable folks. If you can keep that reason afloat, that will work in your favor. Best wishes for the best of luck as work this all out.
 

ronb

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2007
2,241
56
48
Ubud, Bali
Here is our experience, not directly comparable to yours, but I think it is useful to read a few to build up a general picture.

We moved into our villa April last year. It was the most recently built in a string of nearly 30 that have been built by the same developer. The majority (west end) are in the village of Dencarik, while the others (east end) including us are in the village of Temukus. Both villages are asking villa owners to pay Rp1,000,000 per year. I think the developer would have been involved in negotiating this fee, and then encouraging owners to pay. We were able to find out most were paying, but that 3 owners in Temukus were not cooperating. We thought about it a bit and decided to pay. One of the 3 dissidents has since sold up, another is moving elsewhere in Bali and will become an absentee owner - so perhaps the resistance will slowly crumble.
 

Roy

Active Member
Nov 5, 2002
4,835
1
36
Ubud, Bali
No question about the “usefulness” of your post, as it is indeed very useful to post your own experiences. No two villages in Bali are ever exactly alike, and many are night and day, or should I say, Yin and Yang apart?

These days I hear many more stories (non fiction) about life in Bali revolving specifically around real estate issues.

Bali is exploding with new expats. It almost seems like the entire world wants to move and live in Bali!

Seriously, it has gotten crazy here.

Late last month we were offered one million dollars (US) for our new house from some friends from New York. They were as serious as cancer. Eri and I just looked at each other, and we both had the same thing in our minds, “many thanks but “tidak jual.”

The Balinese are not out of tune with this shark feeding frenzy. For too many of them, it is not so unlike a school of fish being driven close to shore for an easy catch. But, in the end, what remains of the Bali as they were raised and grown up to love? There are a lot of tough nuts here to crack to see what’s within.

Every time Eri and I have a few hundred thousand IDR to “park” we always buy an are or two in our village. It’s not about ROI (return on investment), rather, for us, it’s all about MOI, (maintenance of investment). For us, it’s all about our three sons, their future, and the future of our village. For us it doesn’t matter what our holdings are worth as defined by market value. For us, our holdings are priceless and transcend any monetary definition of how others value them.
 

O

Member
May 21, 2007
62
0
6
indonesia
I recently had to pay a one off "moving in fee" of 4 Juta to the banjar where I'm currently building a house(in Klungkung). I was told it's the same amount for everyone, foreigner or not that wants to move in the village. Too early yet to tell if that's really the case but what I appreciated was the transparency of the payment. I gave the money to the adat head during a monthly community meeting in front of over 100 villagers. I then went on to "selamat" everyone individually (a lot of hand shaking) and was then officially welcomed to the banjar. There was no mention of rice, the money is suppose to go toward village's expense (mainly pura rehabiliation) and means I can now use all the village facilities, gym, library, sauna, tennis court, yeah I wish, for now it's more limited to the pura and the roads..I'm also supposed to pay a similar fee to the Desa although I haven't heard how much that's suppose to be.
 

Roy

Active Member
Nov 5, 2002
4,835
1
36
Ubud, Bali
It’s been my experience, based on the credible stories I hear from many expats that are already here, that those of us that have a Balinese spouse as opposed to an Indonesian spouse from other than Bali, or a non Indonesian spouse, are at distinct advantage. That advantage is the simple ability to negotiate without any measurable risk of “pissing off” the leadership, (thus the populous) of the village. That “advantage” can be leveled, and your story is a great example of how to do that.

IMHO the manner in which you handled your situation was brilliant, and I’ll bet you have gained a lot of respect from your fellow villagers as a result. As I see the “bottom line” that is what matters most of all, regardless if your spouse is Balinese or from Mars.

It’s impossible to place a real monetary value on the “village comfort” factor, but personally I regard it as priceless and essential. So, I say, well done!
 

Ni Luh Ann

New Member
Jun 17, 2007
17
0
1
Canada
A very interesting post indeed.

In my husband's village, anyone who buys land in the village that a) does not live there and/or b) does not intend on being a fully-fledged member of the banjar must pay a fee of some sort.

As anyone who lives in Bali knows, banjar members do an incredible amount of "free" work in their community such as helping neighbours prepare for family temple ceremonies to fixing the roads (to name a few). It makes sense that if you are unable to do this kind of work, you should pay a fee.

When we move back to my husband's village, I will not really be able to be a fully-fledged member of the banjar as I simply do not know how to do a lot of the work that is required of banjar members (i.e. making offerings). As I understand it, as long as my mother-in-law is still alive, we're ok. However, when she (god forbid) passes away, we will have to hire someone to do the work on my behalf.

When I told my husband how you were being asked for, he didn't seem to think it was an exorbitant amount. However, as Roy mentioned in an earlier post, every village is different.

Best of luck sorting it all out! :)
 

mimpimanis

Active Member
Nov 4, 2003
2,100
0
36
Kuta, Lombok
www.mimpimanis.com
No, it doesnt. We are asked to contribute for various village projects like the rebuilding of the mosque, prizes for Independance Day games etc. When they have the nightly security patrols running in the village from time to time, if Made can not take his turn he will pay a small fee and give ciggarettes to those who are on his patrol too.
 

Sumatra

Member
May 4, 2008
283
0
16
Boston
Thank you mimpimanis for your info. Now, I'm not sure about where we should move. (may be Lombok)
I've been reading Roy's posts and others about how Bali is becoming overcrowded with expats and village fees are rising as a result of this.

Thanks again
Sumatra
 

Roy

Active Member
Nov 5, 2002
4,835
1
36
Ubud, Bali
I've been reading Roy's posts and others about how Bali is becoming overcrowded with expats and village fees are rising as a result of this.

While there is truth in that, what I was trying to convey more was that penanjung batu, or the charge for non (within) Banjar real estate transactions varies a great deal from village (banjar) to village within Bali. The obvious inference is to ask before "buying" or contracting.

But yes, the influx of expats, especially in the last 5 years has, and will continue, to have an impact on how the Balinese reckon with this reality.

IMHO though, Lombok is hardly a "second choice" to Bali. I think Lombok is a fantastic place, one which many say reminds them of Bali 20 years ago, or more. Not to sound patronizing of Mimpi, I think she has shown great foresight in investing and making her nest there, in Kuta, Lombok, as long ago as she did.

Only idiots with more money than brains get involved with those ponzi real estate schemes in southern Bali. For those who have an added sense, a hunch they trust, and the (pardon me) balls to act on their intuition and common sense, there are still plenty of opportunities in Bali, and Lombok too.
 

Sumatra

Member
May 4, 2008
283
0
16
Boston
Hi Roy,

Thanks for the input, I'll keep that in mind as our research is continuing.
BTW, what do you think about our avatar??

Sumatra :)