timdog

New Member
Jan 26, 2010
14
0
1
Not the most cheery of topics, but none the less it's something that has really caught my attention.

Over the last month or so I've been reading rather a lot of Bali-based Indoneisan language newpapers and news websites.
Normally I'm in Java, and normally I read the Indonesian language local press there.

Besides the vague sense that things are generally more chaotic, that the the politics is more fractuous, and that the corruption is worse in Bali, one thing really stands out - the sheer number of suicides and attempted suicides.

In Java (Surabaya) I do see accounts of suicides in the local press, but not that often. But here in Bali they seem to happen with really distressing frequency. I have genuinely lost count of how many I've read of in the last month. Most seem to relate to financial troubles and familly arguments, or what the Indonesian media refers to vaguely as "stress".

Now I do know something about what media accademics term "news values", the nature of coverage, and the fact that just because something does't appear in the papers, doesn't mean it doesn't happen (and vice versa, the critics might argue). But on the unscientific basis of an unstructured media survey I REALLY do think there is a higher rate of suicide in Bali than in East Java. In any case, there are certainly a LOT of suicides here.

I am puzzled (and slightly disturbed) by the question "why?" and have no idea of the answer. Would be interested to hear ideas from informed longer term residents of Bali than I.

Discuss...
 

Adam

Member
Jul 21, 2006
538
16
18
Western Australia
Hi Timdog!

Without too much time on my hands I'd just quickly like to add a little bit to your discussion and maybe clear things up a little for you, based on my own observations. While completely unscientific and quite possibly downright wrong I'll give you my 2 cents worth anyway.

To be honest, I'd say you are right on the mark with respect to suicides in Bali vs. Jawa Timur etc etc. Why??? Well, it could possibly be a number of reasons but the ones I tend to see as the most logical from my own experiences are religious/cultural and social. Firstly, the majority of people in Bali are of course Hindu Dharma and the majority in Java are Muslims. To the best of my knowledge suicide is a sin in Islam and anyone who takes part in suicide threatens their opportunity at 4000 virgins (or whatever that mumbo jumbo crap is) in the afterlife/heaven (with the exception of those performing the infamous Jihad, but thats another story). For Balinese, I don't think sucide is such 'a big deal' in regards to losing face or dignity. I think there is even a ritual suicide, possibly has the term Ngerorod or similar (maybe text-book Tintin might be able to clear that up) and there is an ancient tale about one of the historical Raja's (Gianyar???) performing this ritual suicide along with his troops rather than surrendering to the invading Dutch forces. In the story, he is celebrated as a hero for not taking the cowards path and simply surrendering. This may be one of the contributing factors. I don't know with certainty, I'm just putting it out there as a possibility.

The other possibility I can contribute is gunna be a bit more controversial. As much as I love the Balinese, I must admit the true character I have experienced is far from the sugary sweet, wouldn't-harm-a-fly, love everybody to the core stereotype that seems to have conned generation upon generation of tourists and travel writers. At a personal level, rather than just superficial tourist relationships, if I had to list the 3 top emotions that I have experienced in Bali it would be jealousy, sadness and frustration rather than the happiness that seems to shine out of their faces. It's not their fault I guess. They see Western decadence and debauchery and probably question why we seem to have life so much easier while they devote their lives to serving god, family and village. On the flip side, my experience with Javanese, especially kampung people, is that because they are so much more sheltered from these things they seem to me to be far more contented people and hence almost certainly have a far healthier mental state because of it. Money is definately king in Bali. Those with it seem to think they can treat those without it like shit, and those without it are quite happy to slander those that do. It's quite a horrible poison in Bali, to be honest.

I guess in a real life sense the best way I can illustrate what I'm trying to say is with my own partner relationships. I had a Balinese girlfriend for a few years and in the end she shat in her own nest, fell pregnant to another bloke and ultimately attempted suicide a couple of times when she realised her (and her family's) easy meal ticket was gone (me) and she was forced to raise a child with a bloke she really didn't love. In reality her situation and story wasn't that bad but suicide seemed to be an all too easy solution for her. In stark contrast, my Javanese wife has had a prick of a life and her story would sadden even the toughest of hearts, yet she's rarely without a smile on her face, accepts her lot in life with dignity and without spite and has so much energy and ambition for the future it's amazing. She's had good reason to top herself on several occasions but I'm sure not even the remotest thought of it has ever crossed her mind. And she's not alone, I'm yet to meet an East Javan kampung person who I'd even remotely tag as being miserable. Can't say I can say the same thing about Bali, I'm afraid.

Anyway, hope my bumbling makes a bit of sense. Just thought I'd share some of my thoughts as you raise an interesting and intelligent topic. What are your thoughts ??????

Adz
 

MiSO

Member
Jul 29, 2009
400
0
16
Beautiful post, Adam. I have been figuring out Bali's culture (very challenging!) and so far I made simular conclusions as you describe in the middle block of your text.
 

Kura Kura

New Member
Feb 26, 2010
27
0
1
Hi Timdog!



On the flip side, my experience with Javanese, especially kampung people, is that because they are so much more sheltered from these things they seem to me to be far more contented people and hence almost certainly have a far healthier mental state because of it. Money is definately king in Bali. Those with it seem to think they can treat those without it like shit, and those without it are quite happy to slander those that do. It's quite a horrible poison in Bali, to be honest.

Adz

Load of kuda tai generalisation there mate. Jakarta is off the planet when it comes to greed and jealousy. Kampung bali is no different either to kampung Jawa.
 

calitobali

Member
Jul 10, 2008
478
0
16
First off the term would be tai kebo, and secondly while it may be a generalization it is pretty spot on. The people in East Java don't see bules staying in 5 star hotels that cost more for a night than they make in a month, like many Balinese see every day. I would say as well that life in the kampung in Bali is very different to life in the kampung in Java, although which parts of life are different is up for discussion.
 

timdog

New Member
Jan 26, 2010
14
0
1
Adam, wow, what a great reply, thank you so much for taking the time. I'll just say a quick hey to mimpimanis, then I'll address...

Mimpi, thanks for the link. I suppose it's good to know that levels dropped last year, but the question remains, why were they so high in the first place? As for illness as a main cause, again it's unstructured and unscientific, but I don't recall illness cropping up often (or at all) in the litany of deaths I've read of in the last month or so. This week, a Jimbaran woman found her husband hanging on monday morning after they argued about money the previous night; on friday three attempted suicides were taken to Sanglah Hospital within a few hours - slashed wrists, overdose, and drunken insecticide, with family/boyfriend arguments the causes...

Adam,
There is indeed an Islamic injunction on suicide, but I'm by no means convinced about the actual impact of this, least of all in Java. There are Islamic injunctions on lots of other things which happen regularly there, and I'm fairly sure that in terms of norms, mores and attitudes "Javaneseness" is much more a driving force that "Islam". And I would have thought that "Javaneseness" and "Balineseness" would tally much more closely that, say "Islam" and "Hinduism"...

I’m really not sure about how “acceptable” suicide is in Hinduism, but the “mass suicides” at the time of the Dutch conquest are well known. They were called “puputan”, which apparently translates best as “finishing”. They happened in lots of courts, including Denpasar and Klungkung (and they also happened during the pre-Dutch era). It seems, however, that there is some confusion over the exact nature of these events – was it genuinely a mass suicide (some reports claim the participants actually killed themselves in front of the Dutch troops)? Was it a “suicide attack (some reports claim a frantic headlong charge at the soldiers)? Or was it just a military strategy in which death was likely, but not assured (like going “over the top” in the trenches)? Or a combination of all three? (sorry if I’ve set myself up as some kind of expert here; I’m not at all; I just did some reading on the Puputan several years ago)…

But my gut feeling makes me disinclined to look for cultural reasons (Islamic injunctions, Hindu precedents or whatever) in what is always ultimately a sad and deeply personal process. My inclination – based on nothing more than a hunch, I’m afraid - is simply that something is wrong in Bali, today, in a way that is isn’t in Java.

And I must say that I’m inclined to agree with your various observations about Java and Bali. (Kura Kura – Jakarta is not “Javanese”; it’s the multicultural capital city; its indigenous language, ethnicity and culture is “Betawi” and it is surrounded by “Sunda”. “Java” lies away to the east, and there categorically IS a noticeably different attitude and outlook in “kampung Jawa” from that in kampung Bali”).

I have a suspicion that the Javanese family support system is stronger than in Bali (that doesn’t mean that “family” as such is less important, but I think that the “support” aspect may be). The family system in Java – that applies as much to middle class city folks as kampung dwellers – is not without its negatives; if your older brothers and sisters are duty-bound to take care of you if you get into money troubles then independence and pro-action are discouraged; but that’s another story!

That might be part of it. But like you, I also have a sense that Java is in some vague, almost unconscious way, a happier place than Bali.
People are obsessed with money all over Indonesia, and whinging about the lack of it for people of one class, and then bankrupting yourself to make it seem like you have more than you really do for people of another class, are standard practices. But like you, I do have a vague sense that the money drive is particularly intense here in Bali. Is that simply because there’s so much of it sloshing around? Possibly (though I’m very wary of the dubious, outdated idea of happier, “uncorrupted” peoples that is lingering on the fringes of this discussion).
calitobali - people in, say, Surabaya, may not see that many tourists spending obscene amounts, but they do see Indonesians living staggeringly well and spending horrific amounts all around them on a daily basis. This raises an interesting question - does the kind of much-wealthier people you see have an impact? Does seeing lots of wealthy Indonesians make a poor Surabaya person feel differently from a poor Balinese who sees lots of wealthy foreigners?

I’m always reluctant to engage with stereotypes, particularly with negative ones, but I think I would say with a great deal of confidence that if there is truth in what Adam calls the “sugary sweet, wouldn't-harm-a-fly, love everybody to the core stereotype” of the Balinese, then the Javanese are certainly no less all of those things. I think that’s the most diplomatic way I can put it!

None of this really answers the suicide question though, but it perhaps does raise the idea that Bali is not, under the surface, the happiest of places… But I still want to know why…

Thanks for the input!
 

Kura Kura

New Member
Feb 26, 2010
27
0
1
First off the term would be tai kebo, and secondly while it may be a generalization it is pretty spot on. The people in East Java don't see bules staying in 5 star hotels that cost more for a night than they make in a month, like many Balinese see every day. I would say as well that life in the kampung in Bali is very different to life in the kampung in Java, although which parts of life are different is up for discussion.

Actually the correct term is tai kuda.................. for horse shit. What you refer to is the term bull shit. I use the english translation with the horse in front of the shit. Hope that clarifies things for you.
 

Kura Kura

New Member
Feb 26, 2010
27
0
1
(Kura Kura – Jakarta is not “Javanese”; it’s the multicultural capital city; its indigenous language, ethnicity and culture is “Betawi” and it is surrounded by “Sunda”. “Java” lies away to the east, and there categorically IS a noticeably different attitude and outlook in “kampung Jawa” from that in kampung Bali”).
!

Thanks, I'm well aware of the cultural differences that exist in Jawa. Maybe I should have said Surabaya instead of Jakarta. Still doesn't change the fact that supposedly greed and jealousy don't exist in Java at the same level as in Bali, which is what I was questioning. The point is that it's a major generalisation to compare greed and jealousy as being something that only exists in Bali but not really in Java. There's no 5star hotel at Desert point or Nias but some of the locals around there are way worse than in Bali when it comes to greed and jealousy. Same can be said for people in the west who are always busy trying to keep up with the Johnson's.

Not really sure about the suicide thing, but I hardly suspect it's anything to do with it being a cultural thing, more a generational thing.
 
Last edited:

timdog

New Member
Jan 26, 2010
14
0
1
kura kura - apologies; plenty of people do whip out "Jakarta" when "Javanese culture" is being discussed, without realising that culturally, linguistically and ethnically Jakarta (and the area around it) are entirely other islands... But you knew that anyway.

I'd also point out that there is a huge cultural difference between Surabaya and Jakarta too (not least because Surabaya really is Javanese, "rough" Javanese, but Javanese nonetheless)...

Nobody, or certainly not me, suggested for a moment that "greed and jealousy [were] something that only exists in Bali but not really in Java"; that would be a ridiculous thing to say!

And you'd be right to, from the perspective of a visiting foreigner, that the "greed and jealousy" - or that directed at tourists in any case - is more frantic, and more desperate in places like Nias and Desert Point (been to the latter; not yet to the former). I'd suggest that's entirely because those are places are much poorer than Bali, and with a much less sophisticated tourist economy, and point out that you'd find a similar style of behavior in a nasty tourist bottleneck like Proboliggo in Java too...

However, as someone who has spent a lot of time in Java and a pretty respectable amount of time in Bali over the last seven years, like Adam, I find it very hard not to come away with the sense that there is a discernibly different, and perhaps somewhat less happy, vibe in "kampung Bali" that that in "kampug Jawa" (or middle class suburban Java for that matter).

I don't know if this is connected to the suicide issue, but like you I don't think either would be a "cultural thing"; that was actually the main point of my admittedly over-long previous post. What I said there was that my gut feeling was that both things - suicides and that certain vibe - probably suggested that something was simply "wrong" in Bali, probably specifically modern Bali, but what exactly? - I don't know; that's why I asked...
 

Adam

Member
Jul 21, 2006
538
16
18
Western Australia
Kura Kura,

Load of kuda tai generalisation there mate.


Is that so?? Generalisation, absolutely, but horse shit, in my opinion and experiences, I don't think so. This comment is heading down that path however:

Kampung bali is no different either to kampung Jawa.

Are you kidding me?? That to me sounds more like a generalisation from someone who hasn't spent any time (other than superficially) in either a Balinese kampung or a Javanese kampung or as I suspect, both. On the surface they all eat with their right hand and wipe their arse with their left and chow huge volumes of rice but as ethnic groups they are vastly different in nature and lifestyle. Of course there are always exceptions to the rule, but to what point does one split hairs??? And I don't think I suggested that jealousy and greed didn't exist in Java, just that it certainly doesn't seem to burden the emotions of people in kampung East Java in the same way it does in Bali. And I don't know what western country you are originally from but:

There's no 5star hotel at Desert point or Nias but some of the locals around there are way worse than in Bali when it comes to greed and jealousy. Same can be said for people in the west who are always busy trying to keep up with the Johnson's.

in Western Australia, where I'm from, the level of jealousy IN GENERAL isn't even a fraction of a percentage of the level of bitter jealousy I've detected in Bali. Not even remotely close. Harmless envy, yeah of course (and greed absolutely, all part of living in an economy nowdays, rather than a society), but no worse that a jestful 'you lucky bastard, I wish I could afford that' and certainly not the kind of pathetic emotion that leads to the persecution and slander like I've witnessed regularly in Bali. It normally disappears by high school in the West. Strangely, I've only ever noticed it directed at other locals (as in, Indonesians regardless of ethnicity). Anyways, I have digressed.....

Timdog,

I don't think you're going to get a simple answer to this question. I think you are heading down the right path though, that there is something wrong in Bali and you are 100% correct with this comment ".discernibly different, and perhaps somewhat less happy, vibe in "kampung Bali" that that in "kampug Jawa", IMHO.

I guess, if you look at the root cause of suicide, beyond the 'cultural' and 'religious' etc etc generalisations, it's a mental health issue, is it not?? I'm no psychologist or psychiatrist but I'm presuming that Depression is probably the illness and the suicide or self harm is a symptom of this illness, in the majority of suicides. So it might be fair to suggest there are more causes to Depression in Bali than in Java. What are the causes of Depression? I think you could write a book on that subject and any sufferers own causes are unique and most likely a combination of influences. Stress is a big one (and usually financially related) so maybe despite their outwardly lazy and laidback persona's, Balinese brains are actually buzzing quite hard on the inside? I think it's correct to suggest this is a generational thing and this is not unique to Bali by any means. Mental health disorders are on the increase globally and undoubtably are due to our over-complicated and fast paced modern lives.

Maybe the combined pressures of modern life are simply to much for a lot of Balinese? Let's not forget that Bali in particular, has had to learn to cope with the integration of Western culture and demands with traditional culture and demands in less than a lifetime. A lot of Javanese are blissfully ignorant to these pressures unless they actively seek them out, that is, leave home to immerse themselves in the "theme park" that is Bali. Most Balinese don't have that choice. Their home is that "theme park". From stone age backwater to dumping ground for millions of cashed up tourists and retiree's who are in a never ending quest themselves to change the world around them. I guess what I'm saying, is similar to indigenous cultures (e.g. Australian Aboriginals) the world over, but this has been an encouraged invasion in the name of money. Maybe they just can't handle it yet and there certainly is very little in the way of health care or support when the going gets too tough. Surabaya is a big, modern city, yes, but still very much Indonesian as in you can shun the rest of the world if you so choose. Jakarta is a world city, like London. Few inhabitants would be native so exist there by choice and if they are native have been brought up in that climate so are probably used to it after generations of exposure.

Sorry for the ramble again. I must admit, if I was granted the option of enduring a lifetime of hindu dharma ceremonies and servitude (slavery?) to countless pig-ignorant tourists and neo-colonial expats OR a wee nip of Baygon's best, I'd probably go the 'Roach juice too......
Only joking ;)

Adz
 
Last edited:

Kura Kura

New Member
Feb 26, 2010
27
0
1
Kura Kura,






Are you kidding me?? That to me sounds more like a generalisation from someone who hasn't spent any time (other than superficially) in either a Balinese kampung or a Javanese kampung or as I suspect, both. On the surface they all eat with their right hand and wipe their arse with their left and chow huge volumes of rice but as ethnic groups they are vastly different in nature and lifestyle. Of course there are always exceptions to the rule, but to what point does one split hairs??? And I don't think I suggested that jealousy and greed didn't exist in Java, just that it certainly doesn't seem to burden the emotions of people in kampung East Java in the same way it does in Bali. And I don't know what western country you are originally from but:


Adz

No-one's doubting they're not different ethnically, however when it comes to them being different in degrees of jealousy and greed then by all means try and quantify that. Go for it.

Suspect all you want about how much time I've spent anywhere buddy . BTW I'm also orginally from WA ( Cowaramup).

Now back to the point I was trying to make, there's greed and jealousy wherever you go, probably a lot less in Kampung Bali/Java/Sumatra/Amazon/Some village in Germany, smalltown USA, Country WA etc etc because the communities are smaller and closer and rely on each other more to survive.
 

Jesse

Member
Feb 16, 2010
195
0
16
Melbourne
Looks like people here feels like having a suicide for a shallow argument. We can't really generalized the cause of increase in numbers since psychologist or statistics can't make a conclusion if the people they could ask about the reasons already committed suicide.