JohnnyCool
[B]"Cool Johnny"[/B] here and greetings to you, "Cisco Kid" (or are you "Atlantis"?)
It was not my intention to denigrate you in any way. If I did, I'm sorry for that.
[QUOTE]...First, as we both know, retirement KITAS holders are required to hire one or two domestic staff (typically a pembantu and driver), rent/buy a dwelling and a car at least...[/QUOTE]I know that's the theory, but it's not applied everywhere for everyone. For example, I don't employ domestic staff, do rent a premise and don't have a car (in my own name). Why/how is that?
The "problem", IMHO, is that it's difficult to find out what is mandatory and applied equally throughout Indonesia.
That leads to general confusion and different interpretations of the "rules", depending on which Immigration officials/offices you deal with.
Guess it's rocket-science after all (for the central government).
A minister is currently pushing to "ease" the process for foreign sailors to get a permit to sail in Indonesian waters.
Takes 21 days here and one hour in countries like Singapore, Thailand and even Malaysia. Sorry-off-topic.
Thank you for your positive contributions here. I appreciate them.
How about addressing the numerous and wide-spread anomalies, rather than telling us what the government wants with its "rules"?
We sort of know what they are [I][B]supposed[/B][/I] to be. Precise clarity would be great - probably asking too much there.
Still confused.
Braveheart_shaped_box
Its all fun and games until you are perceived to have ruffled someone's feathers or possibly threatened another business, then some scumbag dobs you in to the men in tight brown shirts and they come knocking on your door asking to see your KITAS and business operations documents. Then try explaining its just a hobby whilst they produce evidence that you made items in Indonesia and sold them. Guess what? They will accuse you of working without a permit [I]and[/I] running an illegal business and it will be up to you to prove otherwise, in Bahasa. My family has been through all of this before so we know all about it. AND it was another expat did the dobbing.
Cisco Kid
[b]the knock on the door....[/b]
Hi Braveheart, I've been through exactly that twice, both times on instigation (and payment-- she's [I]orang kaya[/I]) by my ex in Jakarta. They barged into my home/office while I was sitting at a desk on my laptop. They go "you're working on your laptop which you cannot do on a retirement KITAS". I spun my laptop around and showed them it was an e-mail to my stockbroker. But these guys always do the same thing. They appropriated my Passport & KITAS and gave me an appearance date at Immigration. I guess my legal background as an overseas lawyer helped, so eventually (4 months) I retrieved my doc's with a warning. What made all the difference was an Investment Agreement signed by me and a domestic Pt. which detailed my only role in the company was an investor (not an employee, worker, no salary, no operational role) only. That's why you always come out better if you prepare yourself for the critical moment carefully. In addition to the Investment Agreement, there are other measures which can prepare you for the confrontation, which I'd best not go into on this public forum. But if you have the foresight to make ready and the stomach to face them down, you don't need to pay any money or to admit anything wrongful. I'm not saying this works every single time. Each situation is different. My strategy only works when you are blameless and follow the letter of the law. But of course to do that, you need to know what the black and white law is.
Now, pass the cigars...
Braveheart_shaped_box
[I] But of course to do that, you need to know what the black and white law is. [/I]
Agreed, but when the supposed people who are employed to know such things cannot even agree on rules and regs between themselves, what hope have we got?
But good advice Cisco, here have a King Eddy.
Braveheart_shaped_box
As oft quoted by my all seeing, all knowing Uncle, put five immigration officials in a room and ask them to clarify the rules and regulations covering residency and/or investing in a business whilst retired, and you will get six different answers, because sure as manure, one of them will do a one eighty on his earlier decision.
Cisco Kid
in my fortunately few skirmishes with [I]immigrasi[/I], the last thing they wanted to see were
my citations from the immigration act and related proclamations, decrees. The black & white is
anathema to them. These guys make it up as they go along, intimidate and berate. My way is to call their bluff
and if they don't like it, esclate the matter to the embassy and Jakarta immigration central directorate. I could regale you with stories galore, and imagine you might do the same.... save it for when we bend some elbows sometime....
davita
The latest joke is on TV about the Jessica/Mirna poison case. The defence brought in a forensic scientist from Australia to give expert evidence about the cyanide poison. Immigration have now charged him with working in Indonesia without a work permit...this couldn't get any more stupid...except for the scientist who may face jail.
From Jakarta Post....
[I]TANGERANG: Beng Beng Ong, an Australian pathology expert from the Queensland University, was taken into custody at Soekarno-Hatta International Airport in Tangerang, Banten, on Tuesday morning, just a matter of hours after he testified at the trial of Jessica Kumala Wongso for the murder of Wayan Mirna Salihin.
Central Jakarta Immigration Office said the professor had entered the country on a tourist visa from Australia before he testified at the Central Jakarta District Court.
“We took him in around 4:30 a.m. at Terminal II of Soekarno-Hatta airport,” Tato Juliadin Hidayawan, Central Jakarta Immigration Office head, said on Tuesday as quoted by tribunnews.com. Ong was released on Tuesday evening.
On Monday, Ong told the court that Mirna did not show any sign of cyanide poisoning as claimed by prosecutors. — JP[/I]
edit: News is he was deported and banned from returning for 6 months.
Cisco Kid
Well Braveheart, where I come from, lawyers research the law; endlessly.
Since my initial entry into Indonesia in 1976 to work with the late, great Adnan Buyong Nasution, and later,
other top Jakarta lawyers such as the late Kris Sindhunatha, until now, I have never seen any Indonesian lawyer write a legal memorandum of points and authorities. Over the years, I have compiled and continue to compile, my own legal authorities from the [I]hukum[/I] Indonesia. I lack money and have no powerful connections. But in a totally "old school" fashion, I cling to the much-maligned belief that the rule of law shall prevail. I have indeed posted some modest victories and successes. But as you no doubt know, this is a place where Murphey's law and Catch-22 are alive & thrive.... Cisco
Braveheart_shaped_box
davita wroteThe latest joke is on TV about the Jessica/Mirna poison case. The defence brought in a forensic scientist from Australia to give expert evidence about the cyanide poison. Immigration have now charged him with working in Indonesia without a work permit...this couldn't get any more stupid...except for the scientist who may face jail.
During the aftermath of the 2004 Tsunami, several MSF Doctors and Paramedics were detained at Medan for entering Indonesia with the intention of working without a permit. The sick and injured were dying, and some pompous little tw@t in a uniform saw a means of making money out of the situation. Whilst the situation was being sorted out, emergency medical packs and rations were taken away for inspection and returned vastly depleted. Nice people.
harryopal
I am preparing to retire in Indonesia later this year. I like the idea of continuing a low scale of production of pendants rings and stuff but not sure about an economical and secure way of forwarding items to anyone buying from the US or Australia.
Packages would be small and of modest value from $30 to several hundred maybe.
Would appreciate any thoughts on this.
Your tropically, harryopal
Markit
Would suggest you bulk mail them from here (presuming they will be made in Indo?) to a friend in a country with a reliable postal system and have them itemized to the final recipient there. That way you aint "working" here and are not subject to the vagaries of the local postal system.
Oh, and don't tell anyone but us...
spicyayam
It's called Amazon FBA and it seems like everyone (except for me) is making money it from it:
https://services.amazon.com/fulfillment-by-amazon/how-it-works.htm
Make some cheap product in China and then sell it on Amazon. Sounds simple doesn't it.
Cisco Kid
maybe, but what I sell could neither be made in China, nor sold on Amazon. Harry might like to try it though....
Cisco Kid
Well Harry, a friend of mine markets speciality soaps to those areas through Amazon. When you've gotten your operation to the point where you are ready to sell overseas, say the word and I'll give you his contact. Or you might just reach out to Amazon on your own. But on a retirement KITAS, about the only safe way to get involved would be to invest in the establishment of a Pt. (either PMA or local) and back it all up with a comprehensive, tight investment agreement in case Immigration wants to "perceive" that you are working. To them, you are guilty until proven innocent... really. In otherwords, immigration can "presume" that you are wrongfully "working" even if they just catch you in an office on a laptop. But...this is what lawyers call a "rebuttable presumption"; which means if you have exculpatory evidence, the presumption can be effectively overcome. Got all that? If you have questions or worries about it, let me know & i'll be glad to elaborate. Meanwhile, go for it....
harryopal
Thank you for the responses. The logistics of sending a package back to Australia to someone to then mail on seems fraught. I am not sure how Australian customs would view a package containing a number of jewellery items with contents to be forwarded showing their value. And I don't expect to be prolific in output.
Being a bear of little brain, I am not sure how Amazon would work when it comes to forwarding stuff out of Indonesia to say the US or Australia. If it is not too much trouble could Cisco Kid or Spicyayam please explain how this would work?
Thanks in anticipation of your responses.
Yours tropically, harryopal
Cisco Kid
Harry ole Pal, Just Google Fulfillment by Amazon (FBA). They cater to operations small like yours and up (in case you grow it). My Bali soap friend is no.1 on their list right now. And a couple years back, he started small too. Lotsa luck ok....
harryopal
Good morning Cisco Kid,
Thank you for the suggestions. I will have a good look at it.
Yours tropically, Harryopal
Cisco Kid
Anytime Harry. Good luck with it. More Q's of a technical nature, don't hesitate.
CK
Braveheart_shaped_box
There seems to be a 'Wallace Line' for Amazon running somewhere between Singapore and Batam. Coming over on the ferry, I was busy downloading some work related docs from the Zon, halfway over the message 'not available in your location' came up and has remained ever since. Then during a nip over to Bintan, the 'download continue' notification pinged up, remained ok whilst on Bintan, then spit the dummy again on the way back to Batam.
I'll check again once we get to Surabaya.
davita
Braveheart_shaped_box wroteThere seems to be a 'Wallace Line' for Amazon running somewhere between Singapore and Batam. I'll check again once we get to Surabaya.
Amazon is a powerful company but don't think it can move the Wallace Line north of Surabaya.
I'm sure I crossed the Line recently between Bali and Lombok and it was brutal...the ocean dropped at least a foot and the boat fell. I threw-up most of the 2 litre box of Hatten Rosé I'd consumed the previous night.
