Land sale - Buyer and seller tax if nominee does NOT change

davita

Markit wroteNeedless to say he hasn't understood the simplest concept. The "encumbrance" is a legal term meaning the title isn't "free" and "good" so anyone seeing the encumbrance (mortgage agreement) on the deeds will know that it won't be a simple sale - it has nothing to do with the nominee.

I don't disagree...a bank offering a mortgage will of course encumber the title...I've bought/sold enough property to understand that. In Indonesia if a Financial Institute 'encumbered' the title with a mortgage that's a legal encumberance. It's a llittle different to a Bule saying to his nominee...sign this IOU from me as I've lent you the money....then get his back-door cheapie notary to attach to the Akta Jual Beli (Deed of Sale) or Sertipikat Tanda Bukti Hak (Proof of Title). And for the life of me cannot yet understand why a nominee would do that. BTW it [B]would[/B] need the nominee to sign for a legal mortgage. I'd love to free up some money from our properties with a collateral bank loan (mortgages), for other investments, but wouldn't consider 'encumbering' my nominees for this.....even assuming they would comply.

geedee

davita wrote Thanks for your wishes on my operation....I'm left with a scar from breast-plate to pubes so I guess I'll not be wearing that teeny-weeny-yellow-dot bikini ever again.

Don't worry you wont notice it between the wrinkles

jaffa

Markit wroteWould agree - you will be safest if you transfer the "mortgage" from Bule 1 to Bule 2 with the nominee as the debtor in both cases. This will require a new Hak whatever certificate as you will want the name of the new "owner" on the certificate as mortgage lender. Actually it would be a golden opportunity to [I]ALSO[/I] get one of the new 80 year leaseholds on the place (belt and braces?)

So you are referring to Hak Pakai (or perhaps Hak Sewa) here Markit? I.e. I would need to change the name on the existing Hak Pakai (which was granted in addition to the nominee agreement - i.e. "mortgage" of indebtedness ). Question then perhaps is what the fees payable for someone to change a name on a Hak Pakai certificate (25+25+25 or whatever length it is) , IF indeed there are any fees for changing name on Hak Pakai certificate???

Markit

jaffa wroteSo you are referring to Hak Pakai (or perhaps Hak Sewa) here Markit? I.e. I would need to change the name on the existing Hak Pakai (which was granted in addition to the nominee agreement - i.e. "mortgage" of indebtedness ). Question then perhaps is what the fees payable for someone to change a name on a Hak Pakai certificate (25+25+25 or whatever length it is) , IF indeed there are any fees for changing name on Hak Pakai certificate???

I will immediately say I have no personal experience with the new 80 year lease agreements - nobody I know does. They are a brand new institution and I was hoping to learn here how they are constructed. Since according to the new regs the land/house is also heritable (you can pass it on to your kin- the only caveat is they will have to live here, [I]situation now[/I]) but who knows what will happen in 20/30 or even 50 years but I would suggest that the situation can only get easier. Indonesia's need for investment money will only increase and the doors will open more and more, just slowly. Question you need to ask yourself is do you really need to have the full leasehold? Isn't 80 years enough? The possibility of changing the agreement for a full freehold sometime in the future is a given under the ever changing Indonesian legal [I]system[/I] (and I use that term lightly). You would really only need the leasehold agreement and a way to keep your nominee agreeable to later changes to freehold, with luck. This may be difficult since if you take leasehold he will be the owner of the property clear and simple and leasing it back to you. I've talked myself back to the original position, sorry. Make a mortgage agreement with your nominee that is noted on the deeds (which you keep!). Make a further leasehold agreement with him/her to reflect the new 80 year leasehold position. Job done! But what do I know?

davita

geedee wroteDon't worry you wont notice it between the wrinkles

OMG you're right...I lost 4 Kilos since this epic and Im wrinkling everywhere. Cannot wait to get to the pub and fill up on beer and wine and de-wrinkle. I'd originally thought it cool, when the scar healed, to have a tattoo on my belly to obscure the surgery and was working on some designs...then a friend said they don't do tattoos under general anaesthetics...frig that...must be painful...:icon_e_surprised: Geedee do me a favor...can you send back those baggy red pants I lent you for your new avatar...I really need them to hide my pampers...:icon_e_biggrin:

Elvisisintheroom

Markit wroteOne of the purposes of the "mortgage" is to encumber the property so that it can't be sold out from under you and hence the need to have your name on the land certificate as "lender"

I would advise everybody using this forum to (block) "davita." I would argue that his threats to members of this forum are damaging to the existance of this forum.

DenpasarHouse

davita wrote....it will give me more freedom of speech

Yeah, but what about the rest of us? Do I now have to worry about everything I write being judged by Balinese officials?

Markit

Another point that the OP raised that hasn't been broached is the taxes on sales. It seems that the tax is based on the "given" sales price. Since this is between seller and buyer it appears to be largely open to what both agree to say was the price. The notary charge, as already mentioned, is not to be a percentage of sale price but a previously agreed lump payment so there is little disagreement to expect from that quarter usually.

Elvisisintheroom

In my book this is constitutes a threat towards "geedee" "Re: your green comment...If you PM me your address/tel#/email I'll be sure to pass your above comments to him....so he can respond directly." Especially considering this idiot " davita" has already passed on a direct quote from this forum to the Balinese police. I have put "davita" on my "Ignore list" as I will do with anybody that responds in such a pathetic and childish way. We all know the internet is not a private domain but a forum member "grassing" another forum member?

Elvisisintheroom

My wife recently purchased land in Ungasan and the Notaris advised us that the tax would not be calculated relative to the sale price or (agreed published sales price), but on the median land sale price for a given area. This concept seems completely insane. The seller went to the office in Denpasar and explained that the land was sold for less than the median sale price due to it not being on a main road etc. The outcome was that we paid the tax relative to what we were paying. My first response was to think the Notaris was having us on. But absolutely nothing would surprise me in Indonesia.

Elvisisintheroom

Police chief removed in Bali extortion case | The Jakarta Post

davita

Police chief removed in Bali extortion case | The Jakarta Post

What has this got to do with the thread subject which is about land sales and nominees? Please admin can this be moved so the thread maintains some clarity.

davita

Elvisisintheroom wroteOne of the purposes of the "mortgage" is to encumber the property so that it can't be sold out from under you and hence the need to have your name on the land certificate as "lende I would advise everybody using this forum to (block) "davita." I would argue that his threats to members of this forum are damaging to the existance of this forum.

I suggest members should read all Elvisintheroom's previous 12 posts before deciding if his advice is pertinent. He cannot even get his 'Quotes' correct...even after editing. I threatened no-one...I took Markit's following quoted comment with regard to the way we should treat our Indonesian nominees as condescending and offensive.....

Markit wroteIt also is a good way to keep your nominee in line - don't ever doubt that Indonesians are very respectful of bureaucratic legalese and 99% will never question the contract no matter how crazy you make it. Hell, add in that his first-born will be sold into slavery if it goes wrong and you'll see they will believe...

I asked my nominee (who happens to be a police chief) what he thought of such comment and he thought the same. My ref: to him was to indicate that I post my contributions from a reliable source and, on sch delicate subjects as property rights, not from my pool-boy...end of that story. Everyone I know who has a nominee as their title holder has trust in the person selected for this task which, in itself, is an Indonesian doing a foreigner a favour. Others may use nominees of dubious character, whom they cannot trust, so attempt to tie them up in even more dubious legal process which, according to my many sources of property law and due process, isn't worth s**t!....... but I cannot respond to that as I'm not familiar with those people. But go ahead and block my posts as Elvis suggests....it will give me more freedon of speech, and intelligent debates, instead of reading about finding a new home for a parrot...:icon_e_biggrin:

geedee

davita wroteI suggest members should read all Elvisintheroom's previous 12 posts before deciding if his advice is pertinent. He cannot even get his 'Quotes' correct...even after editing. I threatened no-one...I took Markit's following quoted comment with regard to the way we should treat our Indonesian nominees as condescending and offensive..... I asked my nominee (who happens to be a police chief) what he thought of such comment and he thought the same. My ref: to him was to indicate that I post my contributions from a reliable source and, on sch delicate subjects as property rights, not from my pool-boy...end of that story. Everyone I know who has a nominee as their title holder has trust in the person selected for this task which, in itself, is an Indonesian doing a foreigner a favour. Others may use nominees of dubious character, whom they cannot trust, so attempt to tie them up in even more dubious legal process which, according to my many sources of property law and due process, isn't worth s**t!....... but I cannot respond to that as I'm not familiar with those people. But go ahead and block my posts as Elvis suggests....it will give me more freedon of speech, and intelligent debates, instead of reading about finding a new home for a parrot...:icon_e_biggrin:

Have you just given the deputy police chief a promotion to chief? There you go again name dropping I normally find people who like to name drop are full of it or insecure. As for your reliable sources you normally use Wikipedia on most subjects, that's not intelligent any idiot can use google and you are proof of that. You are without doubt a vindictive unfunny and boring human who loves boasting about how smart you are, your previous jobs and who you know. P.S Others please don't judge all Scottish people on this guy

DenpasarHouse

geedee wroteHave you just given the deputy police chief a promotion to chief? There you go again name dropping I normally find people who like to name drop are full of it or insecure. As for your reliable sources you normally use Wikipedia on most subjects, that's not intelligent any idiot can use google and you are proof of that. You are without doubt a vindictive unfunny and boring human who loves boasting about how smart you are, your previous jobs and who you know. P.S Others please don't judge all Scottish people on this guy

I don't agree with the above and I think Davita is an asset to this forum. I also think he gets a lot of undeserved flak, but I'm not happy about him passing comments made on this forum to the Balinese police. Davita, please tell us you're not going to keep doing this. From his other posts you can see that he's been pretty crook recently, so I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt for the time being.

Elvisisintheroom

Peanuts

Elvisisintheroom

Elvisisintheroom wrote I am not a "drunken feck" at all by the way and I have lived in Indonesia for nearly 7 years. I have married here, had a child born here, purchased property (through my wife) and I haven't just lived in Kuta in Bali.

Markit

Elvis has left the building...OMG! It was a fecking joke! Come back Shane, Shane come back (from the old film). What is a "peanut expat"? Please?

mugwump

Getting back to the original topic of the nominee being the recipient of funds to buy the property and thus being the holder of debt on the Hak Milik; what is to keep the nominee from paying off the debt to the bule and then owning the property debt free? In many cases the property has increased in value since the original sale which (or notaris reduced) price is stated in the nominee agreement. The nominee will realize this gain in value, and pay off the debt. because she/he has the funds to do so or can borrow these funds and have the property at the old value, sell it and come out with a handsome profit. Not all nominees are poor or unsophisticated, and the bule is always at threat of having the repayment of debt and losing the property.

Markit

The value of the original debt should be enough to discourage that kind of thinking and as long as you have the original certificates in your own hands how will the local get at that kind of money? Who's going to loan someone a couple of billion to do that kind of a swindle? All things are [I]possible[/I] but we should try and keep it down to the [I]probable[/I].

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