balibule
Maybe the one Anzac wants to report is in the same business but undercutting prices as being here illegal means you don't pay taxes and permits? Maybe Anzac has already tried talking and it didn't work?
joji gulapetis
Maybe the one Anzac wants to report is in the same business but undercutting prices as being here illegal means you don't pay taxes and permits? Maybe Anzac has already tried talking and it didn't work?[/QUOTE]Or maybe Anzac wants to report a bule that took him for a ride? There are still some of those around. :topsy_turvy::topsy_turvy:
Smoke
or maybe he wants to work illegal in Bali and whats to know what it takes to report him ?all speculation till they reply and explain
balibule
all speculation till they reply and explain[/QUOTE]My point exactly :icon_e_wink:
Markit
Boy! this sure made me smile....
gilbert de jong
cool, so he's australian and not Indonesian :black_eyed:still doesn't neccessarily means that he has score to settle with someone :angel:asking "if anyone knows the procedure", a procedure he himself should know, when having a partner organizing tours/travels/visa on Bali.
ExpatBali
I have been a reader of this forum on and off for the past 6 years and when i saw this topic, I felt compelled to register and voice my opinion. As an Expat living in Bali, our PMA group of companies / brands, employs a large Indonesian workforce and many other expats. The costs associated in employing, insuring and Kitas fees is huge. Whats even greater, is the cost of holding and maintaining the effective required and relevant licenses to operate these businesses. ANZAC's question is most likely a request for help out of sheer frustration with illegal workers and businesses, and share this frustration too. Gaining an unfair competitive advantage because a business runs with out licenses, kitas visas, taxes and all the associated legal fees is not only an unfair playing field but is also robbing the community of the income it deserves to be receiving, mainly in the form of taxation. The end losers are the businesses who operate legally with compliance, Balinese communities and those expats who are doing the right thing. How many of us complain about things like the road conditions, however isn't it hypocritical to make these comments if you are an illegal worker? After all you aren't making valid and legal contributions now are you!I'm pretty sure we are all aware that foreigners can't simply get on a flight to the USA and open up a business, move families over, all without the valid green cards but, for some reason this seems to be deliberately overlooked as if to throw another slap to the Balinese and Indonesian people in assuming they won't be smart enough to catch out them out. We are proactive in our approach to compliance, I enjoy having taxation, immigration and banjar involvement in our businesses. It says we are here to embrace the purpose of our Kitas in training and growing the community. Our staff community programs engage and educate not only the staff themselves but our schooling programs send the next generation to school at our expense. We act as corporate role models at the detriment of profit and do all this with being compliant. So this presents a situation of operating in an unfair environment from a pricing persecutive, as illegal workers and businesses have majorly lower outgoings and there is the ethical stand point. If you don't have the capital to start and operate a business with all the appropriate licenses and visas, then guess what, you can't afford to be a business owner and operate here legally so you shouldn't operate at all. I think for many its time to make change and push the issue. I know for one I would gladly assist authorities in finding the cheats and make a significant financial contribution to encourage and aid the efforts of a task force, to create a fair and equitable playing field and ensure the future of our company is secured and which means the futures our Balinese and Indonesian staff are all secured as well.That being said, there is a lot of jealousy in many expats and its easy for some to blame troubled times or failing businesses with accusations that a person or competitor is illegal. I have been falsely on the end of these allegations in the past so before you unleash havoc, make sure that the person or company is in fact 100% in breach of the law.
Rangi
Gaining an unfair competitive advantage because a business runs with out licenses, kitas visas, taxes and all the associated legal fees is not only an unfair playing field [B]but is also robbing the community of the income it deserves to be receiving, mainly in the form of taxation[/B]. [/QUOTE]I enjoy having taxation[/QUOTE]I can honestly say I never have heard a business owner say that they enjoy having taxation. . . .
Markit
Dear Expatbali wonderful that this small theme has drawn someone that has been lurking around the edges and could have undoubtedly added vastly to the wealth of information that is the Balipod HAD HE/SHE WISHED TO over the last 6 years. Please stick around. I have been a reader of this forum on and off for the past 6 years and when i saw this topic, I felt compelled to register and voice my opinion. As an Expat living in Bali, our PMA group of companies / brands, employs a large Indonesian workforce and many other expats. The costs associated in employing, insuring and Kitas fees is huge. Whats even greater, is the cost of holding and maintaining the effective required and relevant licenses to operate these businesses. ANZAC's question is most likely a request for help out of sheer frustration with illegal workers and businesses, and share this frustration too. [COLOR=#ff0000]Astonishing the number of reasons attributed to a simple question:[I]"[/I][/COLOR][I][COLOR=#ff0000]I'm wondering if anyone knows the procedure to report an illegal westerner working in Bali??" [/COLOR][/I][COLOR=#ff0000]I'm guessing many posters are interpreting their own motivation into it [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000]and no one will know until or if Anzac returns to enlighten us all.... [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000]?[/COLOR]Gaining an unfair competitive advantage because a business runs with out licenses, kitas visas, taxes and all the associated legal fees is not only an unfair playing field but is also robbing the community of the income it deserves to be receiving, mainly in the form of taxation. The end losers are the businesses who operate legally with compliance, Balinese communities and those expats who are doing the right thing. [COLOR=#ff0000]On the face of it nothing to argue with here, or... Taken out of context your statement is both laudable and morally correct the only small problem I have is that when placed into the context of living in a semi-benign kleptocracy which some might call Indonesia I have some personal issues - First and foremost is the fact that no one, ever, on the planet earth paid taxes willingly or happily. Many would suggest that the legal situation re: visas and license, the way it is now is maintained in the grey areas precisely to the advantage of certain officials and bureaucrats that see it as the goose that laid the golden egg. [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000]If the government really wanted to control this[/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000] how difficult is it to go to TripAdvisor and type in "diving Tulamben" to get a list of all such businesses - which could be looked at in [U]a single day[/U] for their legality (sorry Tulamben divers)? ... but they don't so why should we help? Or conform? For the taxes that all those needy Balinese communities should get? Do you honestly think they would get them if the law was enforced? Really?[/COLOR]How many of us complain about things like the road conditions, however isn't it hypocritical to make these comments if you are an illegal worker? After all you aren't making valid and legal contributions now are you! [COLOR=#ff0000]The majority of people that complain about these are tourists and newbies - both have and are paying. I firmly believe that the roads are being destroyed by the massive Indonesian trucks that travel them that also pay no taxes. Frankly I'm at a loss as to how this society functions at all - maybe that's why I like it... [/COLOR]I'm pretty sure we are all aware that foreigners can't simply get on a flight to the USA and open up a business, move families over, all without the valid green cards but, for some reason this seems to be deliberately overlooked as if to throw another slap to the Balinese and Indonesian people in assuming they won't be smart enough to catch out them out. [COLOR=#ff0000]Boy have you got that wrong - hang around the Rio Grande river on any day about 6 in the morning and you will see streams of future illegal business owners getting their back's wet as the saying goes. [/COLOR]We are proactive in our approach to compliance, I enjoy having taxation, immigration and banjar involvement in our businesses. It says we are here to embrace the purpose of our Kitas in training and growing the community. Our staff community programs engage and educate not only the staff themselves but our schooling programs send the next generation to school at our expense. We act as corporate role models at the detriment of profit and do all this with being compliant. So this presents a situation of operating in an unfair environment from a pricing persecutive, as illegal workers and businesses have majorly lower outgoings and there is the ethical stand point. [COLOR=#ff0000]Hat off and I fully support this but I do sense a certain attempt to make a virtue out of a necessity?[/COLOR]If you don't have the capital to start and operate a business with all the appropriate licenses and visas, then guess what, you can't afford to be a business owner and operate here legally so you shouldn't operate at all. [COLOR=#ff0000]I would suggest that small business success has a massive drip down effect in the banjar where it is and that once a business has achieved a certain success and size it will, of necessity, become legal. [/COLOR]I think for many its time to make change and push the issue. I know for one I would gladly assist authorities in finding the cheats and make a significant financial contribution to encourage and aid the efforts of a task force, to create a fair and equitable playing field and ensure the future of our company is secured and which means the futures our Balinese and Indonesian staff are all secured as well. [COLOR=#ff0000]Nice way to see off that pesky competition? Sorry but being a cynic is a full time occupation (non-taxable). [/COLOR]That being said, there is a lot of jealousy in many expats and its easy for some to blame troubled times or failing businesses with accusations that a person or competitor is illegal. I have been falsely on the end of these allegations in the past so before you unleash havoc, make sure that the person or company is in fact 100% in breach of the law.[COLOR=#ff0000]Perhaps just [U]not[/U] "unleash havoc" would be a better method - "live and let live" is also a good rule to follow in business I've found - you start throwing around stones and some will land on you, for sure.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]Stick around :icon_e_smile:
Atlantis
Hi all,I'm wondering if anyone knows the procedure to report an illegal westerner working in Bali??[/QUOTE]As it has been hinted in several post, reporting a foreigner is pretty easy. POLRI, Depnaker and Depkumham are the three direction you should investigate. However, let me tell you this: if you do so, you'd better be 100% sure of yourself. In the past I had an Indonesian (naturalized), who thought he had connection and influence, trying this avenue with me. I have been interrogated by police for two straight days, the first day for about 10 hours on a row. They obviously were looking for money to tight off the pressure but I was not in the mood to depart with any of the hard earnt cash I had. At the end of the investigation the case has been transmitted to the prosecutor office who put in me in one of their cell for a few hours, in order to see if I would change my mind about sharing any banknotes with them. I have to be fair with them, they were more straightforward than the cops and gave me a ballpark figure. It was hilarious and I kindly tell them to take a hike. This little story end up in court where I was charged with two criminal offenses. Unfortunately for the complainer, his witnesses (they were all part of his family) either didn't come to the trial to testify or retracted themselves. However, 8 persons came to testify to confirm that I was totally innocent of the charges brought against me. With little surprise I end up being acquitted, without having paid any bribes. My acquittal has been later confirmed by the Supreme Court.Did it end here? Nope. Being acquitted, it opened me the way to retaliate. The complainer has now sold his business in my city, fled to another province in order to try to escape to face his legal responsabilities and is charged with two articles of the Penal code, one of which possibly sending him to jail for as much as 9 years (he won't get that much however). I also have started a civil suit. Be sure about one thing: not only I will make sure he is sent to a State penitentiary facility for a few months, but I will also make sure that some people inside beat the crap out of him so that he really get that falsely accusing someone is not free. I will also make sure that he's left with very little at the end of the civil procedure.Now, I hope that you are very sure of your accusations and that the guy at the receiving end of your stick is not in the same state of mind than me at the time it happened to me. The fact that you are or not Indonesian is irrelevant. It won't protect your ass if you are wrong/unable to prove your accusation and if the guy in front of you is determined. If you can't prove that you are correct, and that the case goes on trial, it can backfire. If you speak bahasa indonesia, please read before making any decision, art. 242 KUHP (false testimony and perjury) and art. 310, 311, 317 & 318 KUHP (libel, slander & calumny).
ferdie
Atlantis, I think i recognized your id on another forum, maybe the same person?Had a senior Tambayong back in my middle school time in Jakarta coaching us stupid teenager in basketball, what a fun time back then LOL
Atlantis
Atlantis, I think i recognized your id on another forum, maybe the same person?[/QUOTE]Perhaps. :icon_smile:I post in three forums, one of which being an all indonesian law forum, another one being an expat forum like this one and the third one being this one, though I do so rarely. It's easy to recognize my postings. They are usually about Indonesian Law or about Corruption and Indonesian Current affairs and all display a rather poor knowledge of English grammar, when it's not the three at the same time.
balibule
"an all indonesian law forum" sounds fun. What website is that please?
