spicyayam
I have been reading a book on Elon Musk. If you don't know him, he started, or had significant involvement in the founding of Paypal, Tesla and SpaceX.
One of his companies is Solar City:
Solar Panels, Solar Power Systems & Energy Efficiency | SolarCity
From what I understand, they come to your house or business and install the solar panels and batteries required to power your house. There is no upfront cost for you. You lease the panels from the company. The lease cost is less than what you would usually pay for electricity, so it is a win win for everyone involved (except the for the traditional power companies).
It seems like such a simple idea, and hope someone will have the idea to start a similar company in Indonesia :icon_wink:
Markit
You're the MAN Spicy!
davita
Anyone could purchase the required units and create their own system. Someone on 'Living In Indonesia Expats' has a business doing this and has written extensively about his products on that forum....but I seem to remember it's in Java or Kalimantan.
I'm not so sure there are enough KW to serve a whole house/villa, unless the roof was covered in panels, but maybe running a pool pump is feasible...and therefore limit the PLN charges.
It would need panels, an inverter, and some switching devices.
I was thinking of doing something like that myself so if anyone has info of availability in Bali I'd welcome that news.
Steve Rossell
BTW. Green school have a vortex style hydro power system in the adjacent river as one of their power generators. The part of the river flows into a man-made whirlpool system and exits via the turbine that creates electricity. Simple.
Not so simple was convincing local stakeholders that it would not disrupt the river flow or have a negative effect on the Subak.
Steve Rossell
Indeed Davita you can even make you own solar panels and it's relatively simple to do.
Solar energy provided by 4 or 5 panels has the capacity to provide enough power for the needs of a household of 4-5 people. Barring the use of high drain appliances such as air-con units.
The main issue for alternative energy provision has been the storing of all that power for later usage. But that is rapidly changing and has reached a virtual tipping point a few months ago when the Tesla group released their "Home" and "Business" battery systems onto the market with claims of being able to store and release enough power for up to 1 month for an average family's needs and that's for a western middle class family.
In Bali there is so much sunlight that excess power can be generated during daylight hours and with compound or extended family living one home can bleed off electricity to for others to use as they wish. For free!
You can remain hooked up to the grid as a back up if you wished to and there is a multitude of strategies for self reliance in the energy sector.
A couple of solar panels and cheap inverters (smallish) that were independent of each other could for example operate a pool pump during daylight hours without the need for a battery system.
Panel technology of late has enabled energy collection increases even on cloudy days.
I haven't been here long enough to know of company's specialising in this field but it it stunning to me that there isn't a larger interest in these systems.Power generated by good old hydro is another alternative that is untapped (pun intended :)) here in Bali. I don't mean damn sized but relatively small innocuous turbines that provide plenty of power and don't disrupt river flow at all.
Then their is Bali's famous kite flying winds. These infinite and free energy's of course cost money to capture and deploy putting the option beyond a lot of local villagers but imagine if you lived nearby a small village and could supply them with your excess energy during daylight hours for free. Browny points for sure.
Indonesia is developing fast and that means utility costs will soar over the next decade as subsidy after subsidy is dropped.
One more example. I have a portable fold out binder of four 30"by 18" Bosch solar panels that weigh very little and this will run and re-charge my lap-top, my mobile phone and a third 12V device of your choosing such as a camera, cue 2nd intententional pun, all concurrently. :D
Business opportunity anyone?
Markit
Steve when I originally built in 2009 I looked into the solar panel option and they would have cost significantly more than the house at that time.
I now pay approximately 1juta a month for juice (no AC - just lighting, pool pumps and occasional raucous music playing). So effectively for about USD $900 year I have electric with very little trouble.
What are my competitive options please? Bearing in mind I just turned 60 and unfortunately don't expect to live forever.
Markit
Back a few years ago (4/5?) when Bali was suffering from "rolling blackouts" which happened usually every 2/3 days for an evening everyone bought gensets like mad. That bottleneck only lasted about 6 months and since then all those gensets that where bought have been sitting somewhere doing nothing but rust.
Point is, if you want a genset there are masses of them around looking for a buyer but you need to know your way around them... Just saying,like..
davita
That's what I also remember and why I wired the house but didn't yet bother to buy the genset as the rolling black-outs disappeared. In our area they seem to be slowly returning. I note that PLN say that Bali's consumption is lower these past 9 months but wonder...maybe because they shut the power OFF.
I'd think a rusting, little used 5 year old genset might be a liability....so looking for a discounted new one or one in used but newish condition.
The models in hardware stores all seem to be made in China and the Honda models (2 KW), which are very popular on boats in N. America as they are so quiet, are really expensive here.
davita
I'm with Markit...the cost benefit and return on capital on home solar does not add up in Indonesia. Even tho' the cost of photo-voltaic cell panels are much cheaper than when Markit started his build, the cost of inverters/batteries have increased.
Most progressive countries attempting this 'home' solar energy systems need subsidies or incentives to break-even. I cannot see Indonesia do that...indeed, to stimulate growth they are offering industries 30% discount for consumption from 11:00pm and 8:00am. Also, the only generating plant under construction in Bali is coal fired...so much for pollution and green systems.
But I'd really like to use a panel or two to drive my pool pump during the day, without the battery back-up, therefore request info from anyone finding an outlet here in Bali for the panel/inverter equipment.
Just had another black-out this morning for 2 hours 20 mins.....so I'm more interested in having a reserve of electricity. I've wired an optional cable to serve some of my house but not yet bought a genset. I've seen the ones in Ace/Mitra/Depo but are there any other sources of some other product?
I'm thinking around 3 KW power would satisfy 1 A/C, internet, TV, phone, and some lighting....all located in the master bedroom.
I'd also like to connect the water pump which is located near the pool pump...but maybe a switch to solar would service that...any ideas on an auto-switch to go from grid to solar?
mugwump
I am probably revealing my total lack of knowledge on this subject, but Elon Musk is currently building a plant in Nevada to produce a battery that will produce a much greater charge than what is currently available. To recharge the first Teslas requires four to five hours, and the goal is a much shorter period with a more powerful, yet not larger battery. Can this concept be then replicated for solar applications?
Steve Rossell
Davita and Markit I hear what you are saying. There is still an expense involved that at the moment may seem of no benefit monetarily, immediately at least. Photo-voltaic cells are now 'old hat' and newer panel technology has increased efficiency enormously in recent years and in keeping in line with all new technology roll outs it is more expensive than the more established older tech'. That also means the more established tech' forms have dropped in price, that is that they are still useful and perform well, it's just that the latest and greatest need development costs recouped and production line changes do of course comes at a cost.
The cost of batteries to store power for later deployment is negligible when considering the enormous amount of motorcycle batteries available throughout Sth. East Asia. The batteries can be combined for a storage system that is quite adequate for the power consumption needs of the average household in Bali and well and truly for the average Balinese household with an outlay cost recoupment of as little as 3 years. Sans Air-con' of course. This approach will still have some maintenance and replacement costs but compared to the newly released Tesla system with a costing of around US$4,000 (guaranteed to last about a decade) it is still a viable fiscal option even if you don't intend on shuffling your mortal coil forever. Tesla are certainly not the only company developing and releasing products of the like that they have, they are just better placed in the market with Elon Musk at the helm to sell their particular brand of soap.
Subsidy wise? Forget it in Indonesia. In fact, forget it in Australia. Even with the few short years of incentives and subsidies provided in Oz for consumers, these benefits were generally eroded by energy retailers and installers' mark-ups. Now with the reduction of said subsidies and 'early adopter' incentives, Australians are increasingly turning their backs on coal mines with major community ructions concerning a newly approved massive coal mine by the Adami (sic) group in the state of Queensland.
I'm no guru but I have investigated the alternative energy sector over many years. I don't have shares in the current industry and I don't think less of the status quo for personal choice. I too am a victim of comfort and convenience.
I really hope that my post doesn't seem like some kind of manifesto but I'm obviously passionate about the subject and believe that it is now a fiscally viable alternative.
Finally (for this post), the choice is partly about the comfort that is provided by a modicum of self reliance and minimising exposure to a corporate mentality, a mentality that is driven by a 'projected profit margin' ethos of growth and the certainty of the 'market force' (unlike 'markit' force) increases in consumer costs.
Peace, Love and Mungbeans......and Bintangs. :icon_idea:
spicyayam
Yes, I believe that is his plan. His three companies are all connected. They are also installing solar power to the car recharging stations.
This is the book in case you are interested:
Elon Musk: Tesla, SpaceX, and the Quest for a Fantastic Future: Ashlee Vance: 9780062301239: Amazon.com: Books
davita
Thanks for your post Steve...if you hear of ANY of those sytems available in Bali please post...otherwise you are discussing what's available to Australians and N. Americans.
In 1975 I shipped a 'Solahart' solar/immersion heater combination from Perth to a house I built in Hong Kong. Solahart advised me, after I told them the electricty costs in Hong Kong, that I'd recover my capital expenditure after 3 years. It only had a red light to indicate when electricity was used...it was rarely ON.
I went back to visit the house a couple of years ago and the current owners said it was still on the roof and working...so I'm very conscious of your point. That solar water-heater paid for itself numerous times over.
Re: batteries...it will take a lot of motor bike batteries to provide any sort of power and they are totally inappropriate to use with an inverter system. I've owned yachts (range 35-50 feet) for the last 25 years using inverters.... and the deep-cycle battery banks needed to feed the inverters was huge.
Markit
Guys! PLN would never, ever allow anything like true energy savings to provided cheaper power than their dirty old coal fired electricity.
We should wake up every morning and thank our lucky stars that they haven't thought about building a nuclear power station. Just saying that sends a shudder down my back although the concept of Jakarta as a glowing wasteland does have a certain attraction.
davita
We should wake up every morning and thank our lucky stars that they haven't thought about building a nuclear power station. Just saying that sends a shudder down my back although the concept of Jakarta as a glowing wasteland does have a certain attraction.
You have clearly not seen the debate that Indonesia plans a nuclear electrical plant near volcano Gunung Muria...near Jepara in Central Java. This was recently confirmed as ongoing by VP Kalla.
Link:
Indonesia gets serious about nuclear energy
davita
I'm not decrying his endeavors but battery technology really hasn't changed much in many years. The same principles have applied....but using different materials produce better efficiency. Most of the research has been to reduce the size for cellphones and tablets etc and has been successful...larger lithium polymer are now being used in the B787 Dreamliner....but not so successful.
Musk's batteries ARE designed for integration into his home energy idea but....at what price?
Imo all these energy savings will need governments to be involved and that doesn't sit too well with politicos as they have interests to keep the system as status quo. I invested heavily in Ballard hydrogen technology when California, Oregon, Washington State and British Columbia decided it would have stations up and down that corridor...never happened and I lost my investment.
Steve Rossell
Before lights out.:icon_e_biggrin:
Exactly right Davita. You can choose. Solar, wind, geothermal, tidal, vibrational, ph"k even lighting capture can be used instead of finite resources delivered en masse.
Gotta go now......the power just went off.
no.idea
The lack of solar powered gear in Bali is annoying. I had two solar panels in Sulawesi 17 years ago. An NGO had put them into a nearby village. I purchased them for $100 each. I ran them directly to 2 heavy duty batteries and ran 12 volt lighting throughout my place.
Currently I have solar power garden lighting that I purchased from Ikea. The only problem is the bloody tourists keep putting them into the pool because they look "pretty " when floating around. Of course this buggers them completely.
Steve Rossell
mugwump wroteI am probably revealing my total lack of knowledge on this subject, but Elon Musk is currently building a plant in Nevada to produce a battery that will produce a much greater charge than what is currently available. To recharge the first Teslas requires four to five hours, and the goal is a much shorter period with a more powerful, yet not larger battery. Can this concept be then replicated for solar applications?
Absolutley mugwump and they're not the only company in the race, the bandwagon is getting bigger every day. Keep in mind that the 4 to 5 hours of energy capture and storage time runs simultaneously and independently with the provision of daytime power usage.
Tesla also has a vast water storage and distribution facility that they have started in the U.S. of A.. They have cleverly decided to cut a massive amount of evaporation due to its location by way of covering the man-made lake with floating solar panels. The heat generated from the water alone can be used as a further resource for power generation.
Just add earth, wind and fire. Wait a minute.....that could be a good name for a band.
davita
All this debate about individual home solar electrical energy is moot compared with the amount of energy that can be produced by geo-thermal means. Indonesia is the third largest producer of geo-thermal energy and has estimated reserves of some 28,000 megawatts....40% of the world reserves.
There is a semi-constructed geo-thermal plant in Bedugul, now in some stage of disrepair...all because the Balinese say it will annoy the GODS.
link:...
Bali governor rejects geothermal project | Coconuts Bali
They put religion and ceremony above electricity. So...who are we as visitors to Bali to deny their decision. Yet the same have just authorised a coal-fired plant to be built in Karangasem...wonder what the GODS think of that.
That's why I would like my own home-kit a la Tesla or a cheap genset...and I'm not friggin sharing when the grid goes down as it did this morning...:grumpy:
