Mixed marriage property case

davita

I read that Perca Indonesia (an Association of Indonesians of mixed citizen marriage) was in the Constitutional Court yesterday defending their assertion that not permitting them to own property, because of their marriage to a foreigner without a pre-nup, was unconstitutional. So far haven't seen any result in the media but I cannot understand Bahasa Indonesia (BI)...if anyone can find any information it would be appreciated to post here. Terimah Kaseh...my limited BI.

davita

@ post #2 'Result' was probably not the word to use ....I should have said 'information'. I agree that a decision is unlikely any time soon but I'm glad that someone is testing the Indonesian courts.

SusanSydney

Results? Already? You jest! Only joking - I don't know anything about constitutional court so maybe you're right and they make decisions quickly - what would I know? There's an article in Kompas today describing the test cases put forward yesterday but I see no mention of comment from court officers or decisions of any kind. Then again, my Indonesian is probably worse than yours. There was some comment a while ago from some Human Rights official or other to the effect that clarification would be good - but I read that as a motherhood statement. Perfectly appropriate thing for a polly to say when a test case is going forward. One of these marriages took place 22 years ago and maybe it wasn't so well known in those days that you needed to get a pre nup? Will be interesting if they do end up changing anything but i suspect it's not likely! Crossing fingers for you all.

davita

Update... Yesterday the Constitutional Court heard evidence from a Constitutional expert Lawyer who said the Marriage Law was problematic due to ambiguous interpretation. He, who was a former Law and Human Rights Minister, also said "a softer interpretation' of the Marriage Law should be used and continues to use an interpretation which would NOT prevent a WNI spouse form owning property even tho' married to a foreigner. The Presiding Judge scheduled the next court session, with another expert witness, on Sep 7. I'm sure this will be contrary evidence but.....looking good for those mixed-marriage couples involved. At least their grievance is being heard at the highest level....well done to those fighting the cause.

Markit

I'm sure this stuff all gets strutted out for the courts and is all objective and suchlike but I can't help feeling it's all window dressing and the decision has long been made. The reason for the open day in court is to see how it plays to the back-benches. I.e. if the decision is to liberalize it and there's a right old brouhaha before that in the press then the powers that would like to be can change the decision before it's made public. It's all window dressing.

Markit

I have been "bloodthirsty with rage" for the better part of my life about situations and people that "my" society thought were above the laws. See Richard Nixon, Margret Thatcher, Rupert Murdoch, various "pious" religious kiddy fiddlers, the list goes on almost infinitely longer as we descend the rich and mighty list towards where I stood in that queue. One of the many things I find encouraging and very relaxing here in Indonesia is that my place in that queue has taken an enormous boost. Like it or not "thems the facts" IMHO and we must each deal with the[I] inequality[/I] of it however we can.

Markit

I think with deep analysis the difference between all those drug cases and the kid killings is summed up in one word: accident. The drug dealers weren't accidentally there with 4 keys of smack or coke. But what do I know?

davita

Re: post #5 Whilst Markit is probably correct in his observation I hope he is wrong...we shall have to wait and see. However, I'm encouraged that the justice system seems to be changing since they executed those 2 Australians for drug smuggling, even tho' there was overwhelming notice they had shown remorse and rehabilitated themselves during 10 years of incarceration. Just yesterday, the South Jakarta District Court suspended an 18 months sentence on the young man, influenced by LSD and driving at speed, who killed 4 people and injured many others. The Judge said “[I]The most important thing to remember is that a court sentence is not an instrument for revenge. It is a mechanism to return harmony to society and make sure the convict will not repeat his crime.[/I]” What a difference to many commentators, who argued, in the foreign drug smugglers case for execution....simply because it was Indonesian law!

SamD

davita wroteRe: post #5 Whilst Markit is probably correct in his observation I hope he is wrong...we shall have to wait and see. However, I'm encouraged that the justice system seems to be changing since they executed those 2 Australians for drug smuggling, even tho' there was overwhelming notice they had shown remorse and rehabilitated themselves during 10 years of incarceration. Just yesterday, the South Jakarta District Court suspended an 18 months sentence on the young man, influenced by LSD and driving at speed, who killed 4 people and injured many others. The Judge said “[I]The most important thing to remember is that a court sentence is not an instrument for revenge. It is a mechanism to return harmony to society and make sure the convict will not repeat his crime.[/I]” What a difference to many commentators, who argued, in the foreign drug smugglers case for execution....simply because it was Indonesian law!

I'm not encouraged at all. Some drugged-up boy racer kills 4 people, ruins the lives of their families for ever, and walks away with a suspended sentence? Where is the justice in that? He should have been locked up for 40 years, ten each for the people he killed but instead he is released "to return harmony to society". I am just trying to imagine my feelings if I was the father of one of the victims. I wouldn't be feeling particularly in harmony with society, I would be in a bloodthirsty rage.

davita

Markit wroteI have been "bloodthirsty with rage" for the better part of my life about situations and people that "my" society thought were above the laws. See [COLOR="#FF0000"]Richard Nixon, Margret Thatcher, Rupert Murdoch, various "pious" religious kiddy fiddlers, the list goes on almost infinitely longer as we descend the rich and mighty list towards where I stood in that queue. [/COLOR] One of the many things I find encouraging and very relaxing here in Indonesia is that [COLOR="#FF0000"]my place in that queue has taken an enormous boost. [/COLOR]

I just wonder which queue Markit finds himself listed. According to his signature 'everytime he looks in a mirror he is reflected as GOD'. My schooling 'instructed' that GOD is at the top of the tree. I really hope his delusional, but apparently demoted, existence in Bali is at least somewhere other than being a 'pious' religious kiddy fiddler....but, to copy HIS phrase.....'what do I know'..:icon_rolleyes:

davita

SamD wroteI'm not encouraged at all. Some drugged-up boy racer kills 4 people, ruins the lives of their families for ever, and walks away with a suspended sentence? Where is the justice in that? He should have been locked up for 40 years, ten each for the people he killed but instead he is released "to return harmony to society". I am just trying to imagine my feelings if I was the father of one of the victims. I wouldn't be feeling particularly in harmony with society, I would be in a bloodthirsty rage.

You may not have access to the report in Jakpost so may I add that the victim's families instructed the court to mitigate the sentence because of 'good faith'. He admitted his crime and had made financial compensation. The amount, not disclosed by the survivors and widows, but surmised by the reporters to be between Rp1-25 million. This contrasts with the 2 Australians who killed nobody...spent 10 years in Kerobokan Hilton, confessed to their crime, but were still executed. Also, Schapelle Corby never killed anyone and never confessed to this day to the crime she spent 9 years in the same hotel. She subsequently didn't write any book, appear in any movie nor, apparently, gained anything but weight...:icon_e_biggrin: Lindsay Sandiford also killed no-one but confessed to smuggling, dobbed Julian Ponder/Paul Beale (masterminds) who got 6/4 years, but she faces execution. Indonesian justice...a classic oxymoron?

davita

Today's Jakpost Business page 17 has an excellent article on the subject of mixed marriage WNI's and property rights....I've linked to the page below for those that are interested but cannot get Jakpost Implications of mixed marriage for Indonesian womenâ€™s property ownership | The Jakarta Post

SamD

Thanks for that Davita, very interesting. I have been discussing this with my wife (we don't have a prenup) and although she was always dismissive of the law that seemed to make her a second class citizen, this article appears to confirm that she isn't and has every right under law to own freehold property. I don't want to be the one who tests it out in a court of law however.

davita

It would appear your wife is correct SamD. The report clearly indicates that only the BPN interpret the marriage law incorrectly. Therefore, there should be no need for a WNI to prove anything in the court...if left alone the BPN would have to prove their interpretation. I know many WNI's, married to foreigners, who buy Hak Milik property in their maiden names to avoid this problem because even notaries say they cannot buy. This legal expert disputes those notaries....so I'll tell all my friends about this and hope the information is widely disseminated.