Georgie
Has anyone else had this problem?Okay, so in the lawyers office discussing various things with his agent and it came up that hubby has a work permit but cannot work. Huh?Since we live here full time and do not have another form of employment hubby must have a work permit, but get this, he cannot work. Why? Because as the Owner of the Business (Komasaris), he can only sit behind a desk and sign checks. Ha, ha, do you think I'd let him sign checks? I am the Director of the Company so our company structure is set up that I do that anyway.So, we ask, so what can hubby do? [B]Here is the conversation:[/B]Us: so Hubby can't work?Agent: Hubby can only go into the office when needed to sign checks. Us: hubby would love to go and play golf all day but that doesn't work for us US: Can hubby be in the office all day? Agent: No, Hubby should only be around when needed, local staff should do all the work.Us: Ummmmmmm, since when? he's had a work permit for 5 years now? Agent: Always, but we didn't know that until one of clients got in trouble the other day.Us: Mmmmmmm, Okay, maybe we should ask immigration?[B]At Immigration[/B]Us:Should hubby have a work permit? Immigration: No, he does not need oneUs: So, he doesn't need a work permit? Immigration: No, not if he is not working.Us: What if he is working? Immigration: He could have a business visa for when he drops into the office, to check the business and see how it is going etc.Us: Umm, doesn't a business visa mean he leaves the country every 60 days.? Immigration: Yes, when he goes home.Us: Ummmm, his home is here, he's lived here for 8 years.Immigration: Oh, he doesn't have another job?Us: No, then he needs a work permit? Okay, but does that mean he can work?Immigration: No, he is the boss, he cannot work, only the staff can work.Us: so what visa should he have?Immigration: KITAS.US: so, he has a KITAS, but he doesn't need the work permit?Immigration: Oh, no, he needs the work permit as he has no other employment and he does not leave the country, but he cannot work.??????????
ferdie
Choose a better position, Komisaris is only for certain events not day to day, tell others to be the komisarisThere's no reason he can't be a director right? maybe R&D?:icon_e_geek:
Fred2
Immigration has nothing to do with work permits. What work permit dose your husband have/title??Is the kitas sponsored by a PMA??
Georgie
Choose a better position, Komisaris is only for certain events not day to day, tell others to be the komisarisThere's no reason he can't be a director right? maybe R&D?:icon_e_geek:[/QUOTE]Its is only a small company so only has 2 foreign KITAS's, I am Director and he is Komasirs, this means one of us can't work. The reason we asked immigration was to do with which VISA he should be on, you cant get a work permit with out a KITAS, so we asked immigration.
Fred2
So you don't have a work permit & there for you both cannot work. That was simpleYou should check the requirements for a work permit, find a dodgy agent he may be able to get a dodgy work permit for you. As for a legal permit no way.
Georgie
So you don't have a work permit & there for you both cannot work. That was simpleYou should check the requirements for a work permit, find a dodgy agent he may be able to get a dodgy work permit for you. As for a legal permit no way.[/QUOTE]No, we both have work permits (not dogdy ones). It's just hubby has been told that he should only be in the office for meetings, signing checks or just telling staff what to do etc, he should not be there full time. We were told that he is legal but should not be working full time. I am the Director and I can work full time, not a problem. The problem is that hubby does work full time, but has been told he must stop this.
Fred2
Being a director of a company is not a work permit, If your company is small it would not be allowed to have O/S workers. A work permit is supplied by department of manpower & has nothing to do with immigration, The documents with your work permit gives you a job title, place of work. A director of a PMA is not a work permit, but allows you the attend to office affairs buy NO WORK.So do you have a IMTA????
ferdie
Its is only a small company so only has 2 foreign KITAS's, I am Director and he is Komasirs, this means one of us can't work. The reason we asked immigration was to do with which VISA he should be on, you cant get a work permit with out a KITAS, so we asked immigration.[/QUOTE]Yup, I understand. Its the job description that states a komisaris is an overseer, they don't really handle business on a day to day basis.In reality, a lot of commissioner works everyday in IndonesiaBut as an expat, your husband position would be too fragile if he do what the Indonesian commissioner have done.I think your agent has failed you by not providing what you want or maybe you are not clear enough on what you wantCan't they get someone else abroad as a commissioner without KITAS (Family maybe?) and switch your husband as a director too with the required KITAS?
Georgie
Being a director of a company is not a work permit, If your company is small it would not be allowed to have O/S workers. A work permit is supplied by department of manpower & has nothing to do with immigration, The documents with your work permit gives you a job title, place of work. A director of a PMA is not a work permit, but allows you the attend to office affairs buy NO WORK.So do you have a IMTA????[/QUOTE]Fred2, do I need to spell it out for you, we have work permits from Manpower, my god, our work titles say Komasaris and Director, I was not asking if we had work permits and I already explained why we asked immigration, which of course is the first step as you need a KITAS first. You are very frustrating.
Georgie
Yup, I understand. Its the job description that states a komisaris is an overseer, they don't really handle business on a day to day basis.In reality, a lot of commissioner works everyday in IndonesiaBut as an expat, your husband position would be too fragile if he do what the Indonesian commissioner have done.I think your agent has failed you by not providing what you want or maybe you are not clear enough on what you wantCan't they get someone else abroad as a commissioner without KITAS (Family maybe?) and switch your husband as a director too with the required KITAS?[/QUOTE]Thanks ferdieYes, they basically said that my husband cannot do what staff can do, only staff can get their hands dirty, poor staff, hubby is perfectly happy to get his hands dirty but they are staying just that, he is too precious for that. He has to stand back and dictate to them without touching anything.Our company is just the two of us, we don't work for a larger company, it can only have 2 foreigners working for it so we can't switch hubby over to a Director as well. Thats the catch 22, immigration said he must have a KITAS to be here (and a work permit, sorry Fred that we aren't talking about Manpower here, I know that annoys you that we spoke to immigration, god forbid they would know something about foreign visas and workpermits) and can't go on another visa as he has no other forms of employment, is too young to retire and does not want to leave the country for visa runs. Basically, since someone else got "caught getting their hands dirty by working in their own business", (agent couldn't tell us who), I wondered if anyone else has come up with this as we had no mention of it until now. We've even had many "visits" from various authorities over the years and no-one has mentioned it, they just stay for a coffee and a banana pancake, check our documents and go. Note: hubby does not have a title on a business card (we just have a generic card with our names and mobile numbers but no titles). Just wondering if anyone else has been told off for being seen working in their own business and what they did.
balibule
You need to change the title. Make it something that can be interpreted in many different ways.
Georgie
You need to change the title. Make it something that can be interpreted in many different ways.[/QUOTE]Thanks balibule, but we can only have 2 foreign workers, and that's us, we can only have Komaris and Director, we cant have say a Consultant for example, it's very frustrating and makes no sense, like a lot of things. we asked about changing it to something else but can't. So, wondering if anyone else works in their business or has had a visitor arrive to say they can't. We were basically told by our lawyer to just pretend he is not working if anyone should show up and ask, he also stated that actually technically an owner of a business can do what ever he wants in a business, but that contradicts itself.
ferdie
@georgie, what is the line of business of the company?Technically a commissioner can get his hands dirty when the director is not around.So if for ideal purpose, your company have 2 director, but then one is unavailable for a reason, say move to another island, the commissioner can take over the job as acting director while trying to find the replacement.
Georgie
Technically a commissioner can get his hands dirty when the director is not around.So if for ideal purpose, your company have 2 director, but then one is unavailable for a reason, say move to another island, the commissioner can take over the job as acting director while trying to find the replacement.[/QUOTE]Interesting, so I will just hide when someone shows up. I think I will have our lawyer work this out a bit better, he's in Jakarta and when I rang him he was very vague, saying technically an owner of a business can do what he likes, this is probably what you are referring to. I do the accounting so I don't get my hands dirty. Being that we are husband and wife they would know that we were both around...it's such a ridiculous system to say that only a local can "do the hard and dirty work", they really are putting the foreigner up on a pedestal of importance. We respect are staff and my husband would never make his staff do something he wouldn't do himself (he even dislocated his arm falling off the bamboo scaffolding while helping our builders work on our house).Thanks, will have to look more in to this and hubby will just have to stop work for now if anyone shows up.
Barekarma
Hi Georgie,I have been following this thread with interest, especially as I am sure that you are not alone (trying to keep to the Rules, but have a life to live too). However, as far as I am aware, the Authorities generally only get involved when "illegal activity" is reported to them, and very often the person who reports the activity are business competitors in the same line of business. So if your business activity to no threat to them, then it is most likely you will be OK. But, I accept, that it not really the best way of running a business. Have you investigated the role of Overseas Company Representatives or Agents? I would be very interested to the hear your Jakarta lawyer's view.Good luck.Barekarma
ferdie
Interesting, so I will just hide when someone shows up. I think I will have our lawyer work this out a bit better, he's in Jakarta and when I rang him he was very vague, saying technically an owner of a business can do what he likes, this is probably what you are referring to. I do the accounting so I don't get my hands dirty. Being that we are husband and wife they would know that we were both around...it's such a ridiculous system to say that only a local can "do the hard and dirty work", they really are putting the foreigner up on a pedestal of importance. We respect are staff and my husband would never make his staff do something he wouldn't do himself (he even dislocated his arm falling off the bamboo scaffolding while helping our builders work on our house).Thanks, will have to look more in to this and hubby will just have to stop work for now if anyone shows up.[/QUOTE]@georgie, I think you are missing a big point here,The issue is [B]the role[/B] that you and your husband had in the company and you have to [B]act like it[/B].I assume that your company is basically is a PT regardless how much employee that you guys have.As a commissioner, he have to distance himself from the daily operations not because he is an expat but because his role requires him to be a watcher and evaluate the performance of the company from a certain distanceIn my previous post, I put a situation which allows a commissioner being involved in a company daily activities, which is an emergency situation where a director is not available due to a reason.Or your husband can do what a lot of expats did here in Indonesia, works extensively too but limited for internal process at the company and do a lot of informal approach instead of formal business method.So when someone with bad intentions call the authority to kick your husband out of the country for violating his work permit, your husband would be alright since he never really involved in the day to day operations.
Fred2
Fred2, do I need to spell it out for you, we have work permits from Manpower, my god, our work titles say Komasaris and Director, I was not asking if we had work permits and I already explained why we asked immigration, which of course is the first step as you need a KITAS first. You are very frustrating.[/QUOTE]Sorry I may have confused you a director/Komasaris (sweet stuff all) dose not need a work permit because they are not classed as workers. They can be there in the office to check management are doing there job, thats why your hubby can't be at work all day. Any person holding a IMAT can perform the task stated on there job title. I hope you didn't pay for your work permits?
Georgie
Sorry I may have confused you a director/Komasaris (sweet stuff all) dose not need a work permit because they are not classed as workers. They can be there in the office to check management are doing there job, thats why your hubby can't be at work all day. Any person holding a IMAT can perform the task stated on there job title. I hope you didn't pay for your work permits?[/QUOTE]We've had work permits for 5 years now and yes already paid and received this renewal. That was a question I raised, about not needing them but the answer was that since you have no other form of employment and you are only living in Indonesia then you need them to do any form of work, even just signing stuff, otherwise we have to go on business visas with no work permits but then you can't be only living in Indonesia.
Georgie
@georgie, I think you are missing a big point here,The issue is [B]the role[/B] that you and your husband had in the company and you have to [B]act like it[/B].I assume that your company is basically is a PT regardless how much employee that you guys have.As a commissioner, he have to distance himself from the daily operations not because he is an expat but because his role requires him to be a watcher and evaluate the performance of the company from a certain distanceIn my previous post, I put a situation which allows a commissioner being involved in a company daily activities, which is an emergency situation where a director is not available due to a reason.Or your husband can do what a lot of expats did here in Indonesia, works extensively too but limited for internal process at the company and do a lot of informal approach instead of formal business method.So when someone with bad intentions call the authority to kick your husband out of the country for violating his work permit, your husband would be alright since he never really involved in the day to day operations.[/QUOTE]Thanks, it's a difficult one as its a small business (yes a PT) most of the day to day operations are done by employees and hubby supervises but he does get in there. Majority of his involvement is actually working on our school (a charity part of our business) where he has meetings with the Village Head and School Head so that part is fine, it's when he's talking to clients and showing staff how to do things he ends up working for hours with the staff. I guess he will have to be less hands on in the future, don't think he's pissed anyone off to 'dob him in' and we don't have any competitors that know of his involvement but foreign clients always prefer to deal with him. He will now use this as an excuse to play golf more often I can just see it.Thanks for your advise.
Fred2
Let me explain my repliesWhen you set up A PMA you are entitled to a resident permit (Kitas) As the owners of the company. This allows you to maintain a office, from there you can check day to day activities. The title director/Komasaris are titles the owner holes to attend to company business (you cannot work).You can live in Indonesia, Kitas as long as you own the PMA, you do not need a work permit as long as you are the owners.If you would like to employ a western person you have to supply a lot of paper work to manpower ie why you need a western person, company accounts etc etc, If you wanted to do the book work for your PMA you would resign as director & the company would need to supply Immigration/manpower with paper work INCLUDING YOUR BA in ACCOUNTANCY. Once you supply all you paper work & the department of manpower issues the PMA with your work permit,you can only work for the company stated on the IMAT.From what you have told us so far, I DO NOT THINK YOU HAVE A VALID IMAT, YOUR LAWYER DOSE NOT THINK YOU HAVE A VALID IMAT.How many more people would you like to tell you that you can not WORK. My wife owns a CV which can not employ western people, so I have a little office out the back because I have a Kitas but no work permit & immigration are fine with that(I don't use agents).I think you are using a agent & the last time i checked they can get you a Kitas & work permit for Rp45,000,000.00 (illegally)THINK you can not own the PMA & have a IMAT.... you cannot be the employer & employee at the same time ???????
