mugwump
In complete realization that we as humble expats have no official knowledge (nor does anyone?) let me please postulate something for consideration.
Let us assume we buy property from A that provides access across C's property to our Hak Pakai permitted property B. Although we have no Hak Pakai with C, can we then "in our foreign name" then have this as a legal access in our name? After all we don't presume to ownership of C's property, just the legal right with a metari (legal stamp) document to have access? What do you think?
Smoke
Usually on a Land certificate is the access/street mentioned/drawn ?
Mark
mugwump this a very good question, and as access issues are a key consideration to owning or leasing property in Bali, it warrants a thoughtful answer. Perhaps a notary or lawyer browsing the board can advise...
davita
This is not only a problem for expats it also happens to Indonesians...this is particularly with regard to 'banjar' in Bali. If the 'villagers' don't like you....look out!
Indonesian Agrarian law badly needs reform. The Government cannot proceed with many projects because of land acquisition problems...witness the delay to Jakarta's MRT, the 4 year delay in a Japanese electric generation planet in Central Java and problems in Papua. The geothermal project in Bedugul was also cancelled due to religious connections to the land.
davita
[MENTION=10114]mugwump[/MENTION] #6
Here is a link to the Republic of Indonesian Agrarian law UU2006 (Basic Regulations) translated into English by a Gov't translator...not me!
http://faolex.fao.org/docs/pdf/ins3920.pdf
It's a bit legaleze and somewhat incomprehensible to a non-academic like myself but notice that it revoked many of previous Dutch Laws on land ownership and use.
Maybe you can get your answer there.
ferdie
A bit puzzled but from my understanding about access here in Bali:
If the agreement was about the right for A to pass through C's property, when you bought the land you have to create another agreement because the old one refers to A
If the agreement mention's the access right to pass through C's to B, then whoever controls B can use the access right (with A's permission)
mugwump
Well its a fun thing to kick around. The fact that a notaris would afix his signature and stamp to such a document should provide legal evidence. In English common law if this were to be considered a contract there must be consideration. In other words the person granting access should receive money or something of value for providing said access, and if such were the case then the person receiving the access would have ownership of that privilege, BUT not ownership of the land. Furthermore it must be physically located relative to surveyed points, and inheritable, salable or otherwise transferable and/or have a life if not in perpetuity.
Assuming that Indonesian law has been derived from Dutch law (rather than a wet dream), and that Dutch law was formulated along similar rational considerations as was English common law then there can be credence for such a contractual agreement if the quid pro quo of consideration is included.
Interested to hear some sober, coherent thoughts?
mugwump
ferdie wroteA bit puzzled but from my understanding about access here in Bali:
If the agreement was about the right for A to pass through C's property, when you bought the land you have to create another agreement because the old one refers to A
If the agreement mention's the access right to pass through C's to B, then whoever controls B can use the access right (with A's permission)
That is right, but if C merely granted the access without mentioning receiving anything in return would it be legally binding?
no.idea
Do not buy the property "B". Do not even think about buying it. Once you have built a house on it, the squeeze will start. Your house and property will then be useless and worthless with no access.
About 2 years back there was a member of this forum who had the same dilemma. The locals even built a brick wall across the access way.
(I think his name was/is Sukumbali or something similar)
Walk away from the deal now.
mugwump
Smoke wroteUsually on a Land certificate is the access/street mentioned/drawn ?
Sorry Smoke I did reply to this, but for some reason the reply didn't appear. There would be nothing on the Hak Milik whose owner would have given me rights of use with a Hak Pakai.
Smoke
ok
mugwump
Thanks for your reply no. idea. Actually Sakumabali is a friend and I will ask him how he made out on the deal. This situation is a bit different in that there would be a legal (I guess?) document with a notaris signature and seal on a letter signed by the access provider. If push came to shove would it be enforceable?
Peter Ka
It would be better if there is something of value given by you in return of access rights. I have something similar where I "pay" 400 kg of rice a year for access.
ferdie
I've met a situation when an access right was given towards other parties without mentioning the compensation value, apparently they didn't want to show us how cheap was the actual cost :icon_wink:
Usually access rights doesn't have to be notarized but needed the local administrative officer to acknowledge the agreement, in my experience a "perbekel" can do that with smaller compensation than the notary
If they did have an access right, you can ask them to produce an explanation letter saying they didn't mind if you or anyone who own "hak pakai" over the land.
Better be save than getting burned
mugwump
Thank you Peter and Ferdie. Since there seem to be many access problems arising in Bali it is well that all of us "property dwellers" be informed and exchange information.
Fred2
If you need someone's permission to enter land or you are thinking of buying land that you need permission to access??????
I owned some land & a developer needed to access the rear of there land through my land, six months access cost them $10,000 Aud.
I have a small plot of land in bali with road access but the land between my land & the river has no access, I paid half the price for there land as they had no access.
In other words no access, no land.
DenpasarHouse
Not sure if anyone else has said it yet but, as a foreigner, just don't do it. Don't buy land without independent access. It wouldn't matter how legally valid your current access is, a local is always going to win in a dispute. Without anyone willing to enforce your legal rights they are pretty much non-existent. Don't do it!
