Steve Rossell
I for one am not in need of such insights and opinion but am grateful for babrams posting. A fascinating and lucid post that is informative and educational from an obviously learned fellow.Thanx babram.
Cisco Kid
I know, admire and respect Susi. She and I both use the same lawyer. Her knowledge of all things Indonesian & Bali in particular, is exceptional. I often turn to her for input. We've also been known to imbibe in some bubbles down at the pantai on occassion.Whenever an Indonesian lawyer gives me that kind of story, I insist on seeing the law itself. I assure you that half the time they don't produce it, and the other half of the time when they do, it doesn't say what they say it said. It ranges from something entirely different or at best something sort of similar but not specifically supportive.Around here the written law is (a) in short supply and (b) even when it does exist, is nearly a state secret when it comes to getting a copy. There are no law libraries open to the public that I know of. Then too there is always the hassle of getting it translated only to find out that it doesn't say what you thought it would say. Much more common is "law by innuendo", i.e., what the guy talking to you says it is (no questions asked). I was raised under the guiding axiom, "question authority".... an American product of the 60's. I've gone to lawschool in 4 countries: U.S., U.K., France & Indonesia. What I can say is this, in the sekolas hukum, future lawyers are taught only about how to protect the rights of their fellow citizens. There is not one single course about how to protect the rights of foreign investors of hard currency in Indonesia. So by default, that's where I have made my living here since 1994. I've learned a lot through hard knocks and from some great teachers (such as, Karen Mills, Esq., the late Mochtar Lubis, the late Adnan Buyung Nasution, the late Kris Sindhunatha and the late Amir Sufarradin). Its a fluid legal landscape to say the least, hence the permanent learning curve.Let's stay in touch for further feedbacking along the way....balisafeharbor
Cisco Kid
Nice to hear that Steve... there's a lot more where that came from.....et, le plaisir est totalement pour moi.... balisafeharbor
Markit
What a wonderful breath of fresh air! Where have you been all my (Bali) life Abraham (sp). In the past 3 or 4 years I've run into so many who are making a lovely living on the fear and loathing surrounding everything "property" in Bali/Indonesia and after examining the stories of innuendo/rumor/black magic/lies they had to say through the prism of (follow the money) skepticism I've arrived at the same conclusions you've expressed Mr. Safeharbor. The only fly in my ointment is that you also appear to have a financial interest in your opinions... oh, well it's back to the drawing board.I will continue to propound this non-fearful, pro-land purchase and positive to Indonesia sympathies until I have some [B][U]hard[/U][/B] evidence to the contrary. Go and sin some moreMarkit
Cisco Kid
[b]not a sales pitch...[/b]Markit, thank you for your feedback.The reason I let it drop that we do this commercially is to indicate the professionallevel of my opinions. The fact that clients pay for our techniques, implement them with long-lasting security, should give some degree of comfort to readers here. In fact every potential client we have hears all that I have said in this forum on a complimentary basis. So I am not trying to "sell" you or anyone else on anything. We have more than enough work, clients, intake, etc. So I'm not at all into hustling potential business for our Office by what I have written. There are other professional sources for this kind of service on Bali, and everyone should evaluate to whom they entrust their affairs carefully.I've been doing this kind of work here since 1995 and am quite confident about what I have to say. I think we would all agree that when potential buyers are able to make informed decisions, everyone wins. That is my goal in participating in this forum.Any time there may be questions or doubts about anything I mentioned, clarification wouldbe gladly given, quickly. Cheers, Bali Safe Harbor
davita
I've just remembered that the Association I referred in post #40 is called 'Perkawinan Campuran Indonesia (PerCa Indonesia). The members comprise (mainly women) who are in mixed marriages with foreigners.This group, I believe, were instrumental in having the Constitutional Court (MK) overturn the Nationality Law so that children of mixed marriage, in RI, can have Dual Nationality until age 21.I read they are now challenging the 'law regarding property rights' which, according to their petition, denies them ability to own Hak Milik (SHM) as they are married to foreigners. The last I read of this it had a second reading, I think in July/August 2015, but cannot find any results. Their website is in bahasa Indonesia which I cannot read, and the content doesn't personally affect us, so I didn't pursue.
Cisco Kid
This turns out to be useful info. I just logged onto the percaindonesia site and found the ConCourt case no. 69/PUU-XIII/2015, indicating the complaint contesting Act No. 5 of 1960 was only filed sometime this year. So my staff is now busy obtaining a docket sheet indexing all filings in chrono. Am also getting my hands on Act No. 5. Can't thank you enough for giving me the link to the site. I'll take it from here, feedbacking you (& by extension, all readers) alongthe way. This is real progress. Much appreciated.Regards,balisafeharbor--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
davita
Re: post #47.Excellent...Thank you. I await any news.There was another thread more pertinent to this subject and closer in date. I'm not sure if admin could have recent info transferred from this thread to the link below....I'll leave it as a suggestion.The content is possible 'homework' for new member 'babrams' to contemplate as this subject has been thrashed many times...usually by others, like myself, with much less legal knowledge or conviction.Link: [URL]https://balipod.com/forum/threads/mixed-marriage-property-ownership-in-bali.9554/[/URL]
Markit
Get that one framed Davita!
Cisco Kid
In case you're that interested, I just found what purports to be an English translation of Act No. 5 of 1960.Tried to paste the link in here, but it was disallowed by the site admin.Will read it soon's I come up for air this p.m.Anyone who wants a copy of that link, just e-mail info at balisafeharbor dot com and I'll send it.
Markit
I did not mean to belittle your contribution in any way SH but I need to keep faith with my own morals (guffaw, what the feck did he say?!!!) and suspend judgement on contributions that show subjective or monetary interest on what they have written. There have been many, many and many that have come, seen and fecked off again, hat in hand. I sincerely hope you don't join that list.Let me be the first to welcome you and you can post anything (links) you want after 10 contributions. Selamat Bintang!
Cisco Kid
That makes 2 of us then.BSH....
Fred2
This turns out to be useful info. I just logged onto the percaindonesia site and found the ConCourt case no. 69/PUU-XIII/2015, indicating the complaint contesting Act No. 5 of 1960 was only filed sometime this year. So my staff is now busy obtaining a docket sheet indexing all filings in chrono. Am also getting my hands on Act No. 5. Can't thank you enough for giving me the link to the site. I'll take it from here, feedbacking you (& by extension, all readers) alongthe way. This is real progress. Much appreciated.Regards,balisafeharbor--------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/QUOTE]Please forgive me but are you stating that you do not known whatNo. 5, 1960Basic Regulation of Agrarian ITS THE F!!KING land laws for Indonesian you are telling people how to get around themSorry but I must have missed something here????????
Fred2
DavitaThey are disputing Articles 21 of the Agrarian Law, as well as Articles 29 and 35 of the Marriage Law.Dr Arie Hutagalung states that the Agrarian law which is a higher law (constitution) only states that a person that is a Indonesian citizen can own property and that the marriage law discriminate against Indonesians who marry foreign nationals.
Cisco Kid
aku juga.... regards,bsh
davita
I don't think PerCa are contesting the Agrarian Law No. 5 1960. That verifies their stance that ALL Indonesians have the right to own Hak Milik Land.They are contesting that THEY are excluded because the Marriage Act (?) says all property after marriage is community property and, if they are married to a foreigner, the 'interpretation' that they are excluded from their Agrarian Right because of the Marriage Act (excluding a pre-nup to obviate the community right).Thanks fred2...seems we agree and i was writing same time as you.
Cisco Kid
Still need to read the court file, which with all the translations, may take time, but itsure looks like its the the marriage law is in conflict with the Agraria law of 1960, whichthe plaintiffs say controls. I believe they are correct and that the marriage law cannot dilutethe land ownership rights conferred by Agraria.
Cisco Kid
sorry Fred 2, but I never tell anyone how to "get around" the law here or anywhere else.That's your impression because you seem to have misunderstood what I have written here.I only advocate total compliance with the law, as explained to me by many Indonesianlegal practitioners and what I have read over the years. I only believe in totally transparent,lawful transactions, and rely entirely on notaris and advokats whom I engage, to keep them that way.I have read Agraria Law no. 5 and have always felt it said nothing about Indonesians enteringmixed marriages losing their marriage rights. bsh
davita
Still need to read the court file, which with all the translations, may take time, but itsure looks like its the the marriage law is in conflict with the Agraria law of 1960, whichthe plaintiffs say controls. I believe they are correct and that the marriage law cannot dilutethe land ownership rights conferred by Agraria.[/QUOTE]Well I hope you and PerCa are correct because it wouldn't need a new law...just a simple and reasonable explanation of precedence and interpretation by MK if Agrarian Law trumps the Marriage Law in respect of this issue...QED.
Fred2
I only advocate total compliance with the lawImmigration. Our clients never need to stand in line at the Immigration office. You never have to obtain stamps or fill out applications. You never worry about compliance. You never even talk to Immigration officials. Nor do you pay any "extra" money. We do it all for our clients. Totally turnkey.Your words not mine?
