davita
Reading thru' the Beat magazine I noticed that many clubs employ expat DJ's and many musicians are also foreigners. I just wondered if they required a work permit and someone had to pay the US$1200/year to Manpower. Or, do they get some special permit for the gigs...anyone know?
Smoke
Davita for some reason I believe they are considered "entertainment" and are not technically working :icon_e_biggrin:
I have several reasons for this as I have a few "local" DJ's and a few expat or non local DJ's
Joe Writeson
Sorry Smoke I think you will find that should push come to shove they [I]are [/I]technically working and require full documentation, the 'visiting entertainment' status is supposed to be for touring artists and bands passing through.
Cultural and classical performers are classed as 'Educational' and again permits issued on a temporary basis.
It is a can of nasty worms best left unopened because if you go to the authorities to clarify, you attract attention to your activities, and as has been pointed out on several occasions, two people in the same office and in the same department will give 180 degree opposite responses to queries.
Smoke
i would bet 10k Usd most non local dj's do not have the kitas nor have the work permit( payable in $1,200 USD to Jakarta even though rupiah is the currency in RI)
i really not care if they should or should not .that is up to RI immigration and work permits departments.
I am on a sosbud and follow the rules for it. i am still hung over from a celebration of a friends 42 day old baby . yup and i be here for the 6 month celebration also.
spicyayam
Indonesia does get some international musicians playing here, so they must have some kind of visa category for these people.
Joe Writeson
[quote="spicyayam, post: 95413"]Indonesia does get some international musicians playing here, so they must have some kind of visa category for these people.[/QUOTE]
..which is precisely what I said ... and anyone working full time on one of these, or a tourist visa, is liable to prosecution, as is anyone employing them.
BKT
All of the international DJ's I know are legally working here. A lot of International DJ's are employed by hotels, bars, clubs. They don't get paid a lot. They make most of their money through out side work which they are legally allowed to do.
I did read one DJ was deported earlier this year so there probably are few out there working illegally.
spicyayam
[quote="Joe Writeson, post: 95415"]..which is precisely what I said ... and anyone working full time on one of these, or a tourist visa, is liable to prosecution, as is anyone employing them.[/QUOTE]
Sorry I missed your post. I would have though visiting DJs would be able to get the same visa as international artists, but if they are living here and doing gigs then they would need a working visa.
davita
[quote="BKT, post: 95416"]All of the international DJ's I know are legally working here. A lot of International DJ's are employed by hotels, bars, clubs. They don't get paid a lot. [COLOR=#FF0000]They make most of their money through out side work which they are legally allowed to do.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Do you know how they manage that BKT?
My understanding of RI IMTA rule is the work permit belongs to the employer that pays the Manpower Permit Fee. That employer doesn't have the privilege of permitting his employee to work for anyone else. That would be considered illegal under UU 2003 amended.....regarding employment of foreign workers.
It is logical that visiting entertainers would be given a 'one-off' permit...I recall Lady Gaga's management went thru' the process and, because RI imposed so many restrictions on her show, she cancelled.
Smoke
[quote="Joe Writeson, post: 95415"]..which is precisely what I said ... and [B]anyone working full time on one of these,[/B] or a tourist visa, is liable to prosecution, as is anyone employing them.[/QUOTE]
so working for 2 nights is ok ?
most " battle of the DJ's in clubs a dj may perform for an hour or 2 . usually the house dj's are there also
.I really doubt they pay all those kitas fees and the USD$1.200 cash only IN USD "fee" to play 2 nights
BKT
Not sure how they manage it, one of them has been living here for over 15 years and works for a very well known hotel in Nusa Dua. If he gets an outside booking the night he's scheduled to play at the Hotel they will find a replacement for him. A few Hotels I know allow their in house entertainment freedom to work outside, I have a local friend who plays in a band every weekday at Ayana and he's often booked out during the week.
You mention that they're not allowed to work for anyone else, does this mean they're not allowed to work for the hotel outside of the Hotel grounds or is this a grey area?
BKT
Yea I think there might be more to it, there are plenty of foreign wedding planners, hair & make up artists, photographers etc in Bali that need to work out side of their offices. Canonman might be able to shed some light on this seen as though his work permit allowed him to work as a photographer.
Joe Writeson
Massive [SIZE=5]LIKE[/SIZE] for post #16 particularly the point about the business cards, had an ROV pilot working on Batam who did a bit of disc spinning on the side, he insisted on getting cards printed up with 'DJ ********' on them despite being advised this was a bad idea...performing in a pub/club that was a known habitat of the 'men in tight shirts' wasn't all that clever either...30mill it cost him...
Fred2
[quote="davita, post: 95420"]Do you know how they manage that BKT?
My understanding of RI IMTA rule is the work permit belongs to the employer that pays the Manpower Permit Fee. That employer doesn't have the privilege of permitting his employee to work for anyone else. That would be considered illegal under UU 2003 amended.....regarding employment of foreign workers.
It is logical that visiting entertainers would be given a 'one-off' permit...I recall Lady Gaga's management went thru' the process and, because RI imposed so many restrictions on her show, she cancelled.[/QUOTE]
Good to see someone knows the rules, the same visa as any international visiter that is paid to work, play sport or lecture.
The soccer clubs own all the kitas & imta of there International players. Lucky the DJ's stay under the radar.
gilbert de jong
business visa and receive payment on a bankaccount outside of RI.
davita
Not sure how they manage it, one of them has been living here for over 15 years and works for a very well known hotel in Nusa Dua. If he gets an outside booking the night he's scheduled to play at the Hotel they will find a replacement for him. A few Hotels I know allow their in house entertainment freedom to work outside, I have a local friend who plays in a band every weekday at Ayana and he's often booked out during the week.
You mention that they're not allowed to work for anyone else, does this mean they're not allowed to work for the hotel outside of the Hotel grounds or is this a grey area?
I’m not sure but I suspect it’s a grey area, or possibly illegal. MY OP was to see if others have found legal loopholes in the manpower laws.
I also know foreign singers that have worked for hotels for many years but the hotel (chain) apply for the IMTA as part of the contract.
My info is from reading
http://www.expat.or.id/business/ManpowerActno13tahun2003.pdf (which defines 'WORK' and which is a great sleeping aid)…..and an edited summary from ‘Living in Indonesia’ ….
"A 'Work Permit' is the authorization given to a company to employ a foreigner. If you are not holding an IMTA, you are not working legally in Indonesia.
To summarize:
• The IMTA is issued through the Department of Manpower and must be approved through several ministries.
• It is issued by the government to/through a sponsoring company for an individual.
• Work Permits are only issued to companies that require a specific position to be reserved for an expatriate when there is currently not an Indonesian qualified to fill that same position.
• IMTA may be issued for short-term periods and up to a maximum of a 12-month period.
DPKK - Dana Pengembangan Keahlian dan Keterampilan - Skill & Development Fund Fee.
Companies employing foreigners are charged for one year in advance, amounting to US $1,200 and is needed before a Work Permit can be approved.
Due to the high unemployment rate of nationals, it must be proven that the expertise of a foreigner cannot actually be supplied by a national instead.
Manpower plans are only approved for one year. When a company's manpower plan is approved, a certain number of slots for positions held by foreigners are approved by Kemenakertrans. If a firm wants to add another foreigner to its staff, they must go back to Kemenakertrans and revise their manpower plan and wait several months for approval.
It is not always easy for a firm in Indonesia to hire a foreigner and involves considerable expense and dealing with bureaucracy.
Deportations of foreigners for ‘abusing’ their work permits are not uncommon. [COLOR="#FF0000"][/COLOR][COLOR="#FF0000"]The usual offense is that the person is working in a position other than what is allowed by the work permit. Another problem is caused when the declared address of work on the IMTA differs from your actual work location. [/COLOR]If it does not match, this could void the IMTA and put the employee at risk of a deportation.
One common misconception is that the IMTA belongs to the expatriate employee; actually they are issued to the company, NOT to the foreign worker. If a foreign worker loses his job,[COLOR="#FF0000"] he is not entitled to work for any other company without processing a new IMTA, even if the previous IMTA still has validity. [/COLOR]This very common misconception leads expats to think that they have a work permit - they don’t - the company has it!
The new immigration regulations (2011) which have been passed and which should be legalized in May 2011 are MUCH more coercive than UU 9/1992 if a foreign citizen is caught working without proper visa and work permit. [COLOR="#FF0000"]Don't risk five years in jail. [/COLOR]"
davita
[quote="BKT, post: 95440"]Yea I think there might be more to it, there are plenty of foreign wedding planners, hair & make up artists, photographers etc in Bali that need to work out side of their offices. Canonman might be able to shed some light on this seen as though his work permit allowed him to work as a photographer.[/QUOTE]
Sorry BKT......I misinterpreted what you meant.
I thought you meant they also worked for organisations, [B]other[/B] than that holding their IMTA and paying the fee, to supplement their income.
My understanding is if the job requires travel to, or working in, another location; as long as that work is for the employer that applied for the IMTA....it is legal.
i.e. my interpretation would be a chain of restaurants/hotels/clubs...owned by the same employer, could move foreign staff around at will so long as the work was in compliance with the work permit....i.e. a chef couldn't be an engineer.
JohnnyCool
The "official rules" are fairly straight-forward (for Indonesia). You either have permission to work (for a designated employer), or you don't. You are not allowed to change your employer without applying for a new work permit. Neither the worker nor the employer have this power - it's the Manpower department which holds all the cards.
Note that one is not even allowed to "work" on a voluntary basis without permission to do so. Simply having a business card which describes what you do, (or where), that's different from your official role is considered a violation.
I personally doubt that many DJs in Bali have valid paper-work. International artists who come here to perform concerts must have permission to do so. Lady Ga-Ga's cancellation wasn't about her visa - more about personal threats from radicals, (like FPI).
I sometimes jam with local bands in public venues, but never on a regular basis. Technically, I'm not supposed to do even that (I have a retirement KITAS).
The rationale is that I [I]could[/I] be taking some local's job away. Yeah, right. There are thousands of locals out there who can't play/sing as badly as me and want to do it for free. I reckon that makes me "unique". (I still have a few fans here and there - Surabaya, Jogjakarta, Pangandaran, Sumedang, Bali, etc.)
Obviously, I haven't been arrested yet, but came very close one time in Lovina years ago during a presidential election.
It didn't help me that I was belting out a made-up-on-the-spot song basically saying that all the political parties, (Golkar, PDI, PPP, etc), were all bullshit, (something like: B-b-b-b-bohong.).
That was over a fairly large and loud sound system (for Lovina).
A truckload of military police arrived - jumped out brandishing machine guns and I thought to myself - "Fuck - I'm done now".
Fortunately, a local cop I'd met a couple of days earlier, when I was making a robbery report, (some prick broke into my car and stole a bunch of music cassettes, two beach towels and my favourite sarong in a parking lot while I was jamming with another band). I'm not 100% sure, but I think he was gay. He'd offered to personally drive me around and see the sights.
I declined his offer and reminded him that I first came to Bali before he was even born.
He went up to the gun-toting cops and told them something like:
[I]"Don't worry about him - he's harmless - just a drunk/stoned Aussie tourist and I love him".[/I]
It worked, otherwise I wouldn't be writing this crap now.
I firmly believe that to this day, I still have some useful skills and knowledge that I am more than happy to share with local Balinese (for free).
I am less than impressed that I am not allowed to.
:icon_eek:
modelt1826
i heard a story of a few npeople jamming at a bar on a reguler bases on a jam night no money exchanged but the immigrasi said they were taking locals jobs.
davita
@Fred2 No.19
You refer that those teachers were checked by Immigration. That implies they didn't have correct visas for entry to RI. They should be able to check their visa correctness as it is, like mine, printed in their passports.
My query is about work permits as they're not issued by Immigration but Manpower (different dept.) and kept by school admin...did they have work permits?
