Bert Vierstra
[quote]WHAT IS GOING ON? [/quote]
I don't know. For sure is however that also between "other" tourists the Aussies have the name of boozers, disrespectful funmakers etc but this fortunately doesn't cover all.
Bali is for them a bit different then it is for "us", its their closeby fun holiday spot, while other western countries, further away, have a different view. Something like Spain is for the Dutch.
That some Aussies probably will be shot because of smuggling heroin will be a wake up call.
I don't have statistics of child abuse or pedophilia by westerners in Asia, but my guess is that Australia will not be worse compared to other countries, Bali is just close.
But indeed its the public opinion here that matters.
Roy
Kim, that would make perfect sense if in fact, the Australians were the most populous tourists in Bali. They are not, and since the Bali bomb, in fact, they are number three, as tourists, after the Taiwanese and Japanese.
Moreover, from what I have learned, as per capita spenders on Bali, Australians are almost last.
Slowly, I'm beginning to understand the Balinese attitude toward Australian tourists. I hear more, "who needs them?"
Roy
Hell, I might get thrown off this forum for this post, but I have something to say, and it’s all based on many years of living in Bali.
Too many folks from OZ are really making me angry. Frankly, I am pissed off royally. Despite the real and truthful fact that some of my best expat friends in Bali are from Australia, even they agree with my virile attitude towards most Australians as found in Bali.
WHAT IS GOING ON?
It seems there is no day I can pick up and read the Bali Post, or watch Indonesian news on TV without something horrible that has happened in Bali…and almost always by Australians! This can be child abuse, pedophilia, or drugs. It doesn’t seem to stop!
In the end though, my opinion doesn’t mean a damn thing. What does matter, and what is formulating every day, is the opinion of the Balinese. Public opinion, as I read it, in Bali, toward the Australians is growing ever so deeply into the abyss.
matahari
I`v noticed a special behavior in many of the aussies found in bali, and my conlusion is that they have been coming to bali for so many years and are the most represented nationality and also have the most tourist present in bali all year around... so it seemes to me that they have created some sort of "we are better then you" attitude towards other tourists and also less respect for bali itself...
let`s put it like this, the more you feel like a stranger and alone the more you will be carefull in your aproach of things,right?
but if you are for example an aussie and there is a fellow aussie wherever you go it will gradually build up more confidence and a feeling of security and that can lead to nonchalance and immoral behavior, if you are that kind of person, I don`t think australians are a nonchalant people, but perhaps the frequent aussie-tourist to bali starting to become somewhat just that..
Jodie
Well said Tracey!
Im one person who has visited Bali many times I have and always will respect the Law and the people of Bali. Im sad and embarrassed by the way some Australians act in our own country and aswell in Bali or anywhere else in the world. But we are NOT all like these people who are making headlines in the news.
Tracey
Firstly love the frangipani Bert!
I agree that alot of Aussies make absolute cock heads of themselves when on holiday & not just necessarily in Bali. I have seen this in little country towns where a footy club, or soccer club or a mens fishing w/end, bucks w/end, hens w/end, ladies netball w/ends etc, etc, etc have caused absolute havoc on the area/camp ground/hotel/restaurants etc they have been at! It's disgusting to say the least!
I am often appalled & embarassed by other Aussie tourists in Bali, I must say I have also been ashamed & shocked by treatment of Balinese & Indonesians by other country men & women from all over the world!
I personally am annoyed at the thought process that a large population of Australians have regarding these recent news worthy embarassments!!!
I cannot believe that back here in Oz people are & have been criticising the treatment of Australians whether attractive females to absolute fools etc without thinking that anyone travelling to Bali or Most if not all Asian countries have death penalty for drugs.
A large part of the population are saying they should all be returned here & given a fair sentencve, in my HONEST opinion, you do the crimne & get caught in any country ytou go through their legal process, if YOU don't like it, DON'T BREAK THE LAW &/or Don't travel there... SIMPLE!
I hear constantly from work colleagues etc that they (the convicted) should all be sent home (to OZ) & dealt with here! But why I ask... To which they say... "Indonesia's tolerance is too harsh, there stand on drugs is too harsh, they will be killed"
I shrug my shoulders, why should that bother you or I , I don't use drugs, carry drugs, or plan on smuggling drugs ever in my life do you?
Ofcourse they reply no, so I say well then WE have nothing to worry about! I then remind them that our jails are full to the brim with the drug users, pushers, dealers, traffickers etc, etc, etc... Also thiefs from needing money to buy drugs, persons beating up & assaulting others over drugs etc, etc! So why do we need anymore? Isn't it better that we start to take such a harsh stance on it too!?
I figure the AFP let them get busted in Bali to make a point...
I am an Aussie & agree Roy & don't blame Balinese or Indonesians for getting a sour taste in their mouths over [i]'some'[/i] Aussie behaviours!
I think alot of people believe that Aus helping Indo by donating $$$$'s to Tsunami, the Bombing etc gives them the right to do whatever they please! Well it doesn't it is helping thy neighbour!!!
Well I hope I am welcomed wityh open arms if not only by my in laws when we return later this year!!!!
PEACE!
Sanurian
While there can be no doubt that Bali has seen more than its fair-share of crude Australians over the years, the Ozzies don't have a monopoly. I have seen many other bozzos from other countries such as the USA, England, France, Germany, the Netherlands etc.
If, as Roy asserts, Balinese are beginning to dislike Australians in particular, I hope they are not so blind as to paint every Ozzie with the same brush. And it peeves me that such assertions are being made by people who should know better. I see no gains to me made by [i]anybody[/i] focussing on negative behaviours. I'm sure Roy would be the first to admit that many Australians have contributed (and continue to contribute) worthwhile things to both this island and the rest of the archipelago. A few small examples spring to mind such as the Fred Hollows Foundation (curing cataract-caused blindness), Ozzie volunteers in earthquake-ravaged Sumatra...there are many examples.
It's quite possible some Balinese have had a gutful of tourists period (including domestic ones from Java, etc). Perhaps [i]some[/i] Ozzie-bashing is justified, but they're not alone deserving this.
Perhaps one should remember the many early tourists in Bali - some of the painters in particular - who brought not only their artistic skills but homosexuality, and assorted vices.
8)
Bert Vierstra
The plight of 10 Australians on drug smuggling charges could trigger a national tourism backlash against Bali, a marketing specialist says.
Griffith University senior marketing lecturer Dr Hume Winzar said the Schapelle Corby case combined with the recent arrest of nine other young people on smuggling charges would make Australians question Bali as a safe holiday choice.
Add in the sexual abuse of two young children at exclusive Bali resorts, and you have a public relations nightmare, he said.
"That's three lots of bad publicity for Bali ... and that's not including the 2002 Bali Bombings," Dr Winzar said yesterday.
"If people have choices, and they're thinking OK - let's go somewhere exotic - Bali suddenly becomes a question mark."
Dr Winzar said the Indonesian island was already in competition with other exotic beachside destinations such as Fiji, Thailand and the westside coast of Malaysia, for Australian tourist dollars.
Meanwhile, Dr Winzar said the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade's decision not to post a Bali travel warning over last week's child abuse allegations would not stop the decline in consumer confidence.
"Families with young children would definitely now think twice before heading to Bali," he said.
Travel specialists Flight Centre, Zuji, Transonic Travel and Qantas said yesterday they were yet to notice a decline in tourists visiting Bali.
But Dr Winzar said the tourism effects would probably not begin to be seen until the main Australian holiday season which runs from October through to February.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Bali-l ... 87799.html
Tracey
We book a budget 4 night package as part of our trip to Bali & we are returning this year once the baby is born & has had it's first lot of immunisatons. We are booked to arrive on Nov 26th, we requested accom for the last 4 nights at a Budget Hotel & are on standby due to it all being booked full.... so it looks like it will be busy!!!!
Richard Kalibukbuk
You get bad and good in all countries and from my experience of running a place where we get people from many places it is impossible to say one country produces worse tourists than another. Luckily my place is away from package tourists who tend to behave immaturely maybe because they are travelling in groups and want to show off.
Come on Roy get off your bandwagon about Ausies and get back to your normal interesting posts instead of trying to stir things up by attacking a certain race of people.
Sanurian
Well said, Richard.
[i]Nothing[/i] good will come from singling out nationalities even if Australia does seem to have more than its fair-share of idiotic, macho jerks.
That Bali [i]might[/i] be perceived as a link in the international smuggling chain (as stated recently by an Indonesian official with respect to the group that just got busted), makes me laugh. It's been that as long as I can remember. It's unfortunate, but it's not something new by any means.
And the local (Indonesian) drug trade seems pretty healthy to me (if that's not an oxymoron). Check out any karaoke bar/disco in southern Bali any night of the week and you'll see what I mean.
Prostitution is rife throughout southern Bali and much of Java, as well as other areas. I see no real concerted efforts to curtail this. Oh sure, there are "statements of intent" and show-case arrests - tune-in anyday to Indonesian TV programmes.
A lot of this seems hypocritical to me. I noted with some interest a while ago that a senior police member (maybe the chief) in Surabaya was jailed for involvement in the drug trade. Hmm.
The Corby case is not exactly over as far as I can tell. The "life sentence" yesterday was a recommendation - it'll be a few more weeks before the real decision is made.
8)
Jen
Hey Roy
Quit ya aussie bashing will you! ..............yawn!
There are all sorts of people from all around the world doing rediculous things in all countries whilst they are on holidays.
Enjoyed your comments Sanurian.
made marko
Roy seems to me to be a non-discriminatory basher...and the only aussies I think can be considered to be of a separate race from the majority of westerners may be aboriginal????
it is very stupid to smuggle drugs and wrong to profit from anothers misery. if you do the crime you must do the time...in this life or the next
Roy
Many people that don’t live in Indonesia don’t appreciate the melting pot of expats that make Indonesia their home. The expat community here come from all areas of the world. Each and every expat that I know well share these three points of view:
1) They have no desire to influence in anyway the local culture as they know it.
2) They all have deep concerns over the future of Indonesia, and the outside influences that can, and are, changing the face of Indonesia, particularly, Bali.
3) They all have an Indonesian spouse, many with also with children.
In an very real sense, these expats that I know have abdicated their alliance to the country of their birth, and they have adopted a part of Indonesia, be it Bali, Java, Lombok, whatever. They will live….and they will die….right here. A tourist, even a frequent and regular visitor to Bali cannot grasp this concept, as they have not chosen to fully commit themselves.
Around here, in Indonesia, the one country with the most influence, and interest in Indonesia is Australia. Most recently, their intervention in East Timor finally revealed their true interests…the rich oil and natural gas in the waters off shore. Under a cloak described as humanitarian concern, Australia evoked its will and East Timor became independent. Now, that country would suck the life juices right out of East Timor.
Most intelligent and independent thinkers I know in Bali all view Australia as the most potential threat to their sovereignty. These same people also get more than just a little sensitive when over and over, they learn of criminal activity in Bali, be it drugs or pedophilia being perpetrated by a higher percentage of Australians then any other nationality.
I’m not OZ bashing. The fact is, these views as just expressed are voiced more by Australian expats that I know, know very well and consider as my brothers or sisters. Contrary to other opinions that these dark issues should not be discussed, I, and they, my Australian brothers and sisters, believe that ignoring, or sweeping such unpleasantries under the rug is more dangerous than addressing them full on. Additionally, I hear these same views more and more openly expressed by the Balinese themselves. In my mind, that alone makes this topic relevant and worthy of discussion. I don’t write the news, nor do I formulate public opinion.
Tracey…thank you for your very insightful and honest post. It was very well thought out, and wonderfully written. Certainly, it must have also been painful to write. My “hat is off” to you dear lady.
PS….By the way….Cass is just fine. I had a nice long chat with her at Nuris this past Thursday night and she promised to come back here, and fill up our forum with her invigorating youthful exuberance.
Lou
Roy, I agree with much of what you say in the above post but the facts just don't support you on the Timor oil issue. When East Timor was a part of Indonesia a legal aqgreement was already in place with Australia regarding sea boundaries and undersea resource ownership. Joint exploration agreements were also signed and a number of projects were being negotiated by the joint governments with commercial operators.
When East Timor separated all boundaries between it and Indonesia as well as Australia had to be re-negotiated. The outcome of this will be far less advantageous to Australia than the former agreements with Indonesia. That is an empirical fact and no amount of argument or gossip can change it. Perception in Indonesia is another matter and is, in some quarters, as you describe it. That makes it reality to the person holding the perception but doesn't excuse the educated from checking to see if the data lines up with the prejudice.
The Australian involvement in East Timor was in fact fomented by the media who had a very different agenda to the one you describe. They had people inflamed in the same way, but far worse, than what is now being done with Ms Corby's situation. Australia's biggest problem then and now is the lack of leadership from their government and political opposition. They are all of them crass populists incapable of standing up to the media. Ascribing to John Howard's team the motives in your post is to grotequely flatter a group whose vision never extends beyond the last opinion poll.
Australian misbehavior in Bali has been a problem since at least the early 80's. As was mentioned by another poster in this thread, proximity has much to do with it. Along with an overwhelmingly larger number of decent people, we also get the louts and harpies who can afford the fare to Bali after a few weeks of work. Just like Cabo San Luca is becoming and Costa del Sol has been for a long time. The answers have always been to raise the expense bar, get rid of the things that attract such people in the first place and take the location up market.
Let's face it we don't see much of this disorderliness in Ubud and the reasons are obvious. First and foremost the louts don't like the place because we don't have a nightlife that attracts them. The hardest part of changing things elsewhere on the island is getting rid of their seedy attractions. That's not going to happen without a lot of Balinese community willpower and playing the helpless victim won't cut it. It's their island and they are the only ones who can make and enforce the sacrifices and tradeoffs required. Bleating about the Australians in the local newspapers might be therapeutic but it's counter productive when the whingeing is a substitute for action.
As for the issue of traveling paedophiles and other undesirables, that is completely in the domain of the Indonesian authorities. They need to do a better job of keeping those people out in the first place and there is plenty of help available. One place to start would be moving the visa issuance location back to the countries of origin and implementing an efficient criminal record checking process. The Australian authorities are very cooperative in that particular regard and the national police of both countries work well together. No doubt informal intelligence sharing with regards to those suspected but not yet convicted could also be arranged.
Roy
Lou, a great post, and I will defer to you on the issue of the offshore oil/gas issue as it relates to East Timor/OZ. I think what is really at the core of the East Timor issue, at least in the opinions of most people I have discussed this with, is that the involvement of Australia was wrong. That this involvement was fueled by the Australian press is especially depressing.
You further write:
[quote]As for the issue of traveling paedophiles and other undesirables, that is completely in the domain of the Indonesian authorities.
[/quote]
I totally disagree with you on your point that it is more the responsibility of the Indonesians to protect themselves from “traveling pedophiles.” In my opinion, the passports and thereby the ability to travel internationally should be revoked by the countries of origin for those citizens already arrested, convicted or even suspected of such activities. Visas have nothing to do with it. The fact that countries allow their criminal citizens to retain a passport is a de facto criminal act in its own right.
Petenjo
You find a certain proportion of dropkicks/losers in every country/culture. As highlighted above, the relative closeness of Bali to Australia obviously results in the greatest number of tourists and hence, a higher number of said dropkicks/losers.
It's no difference in other highly populated holiday destinations throughout the world, such as Ibiza, where it's the Brit lager lout who stand out, or in Cancun where the US plonker is most eveident - based on the relative proximity of their respective countries to each location.
I've been an expat for the past 12 years living/working in numerous countries and have theories that certain cultures generate a greater percentage per capita of w&%kers than others, but statements like that only get me into trouble.....
