davita
tel522 wrote Buying ?? , in a falling market , falling rupiah , maintenance costs , legality ? , for sure not at the moment
That's what some friends of mine said 20-30 years ago but still took the risk and purchased property in Bali and other parts of RI. Today, they are multi-USD-millionaires, because of that decision.
A similar thing happened when I worked/lived in Hong Kong...the market tumbled and re-grew twice during my 16 years there.
I've been to Florida, sailing the intercoastal, and saw magnificent properties on foreclosure. If I wanted to live in the States...what an opportunity!!!
The sun will shine tomorrow and it will get dark at night and property markets everywhere will rise and wane...just like the sun and the moon.
tel522
spicyayam wroteI agree that it is ill-advised for foreigners to buy property in Indonesia. There are many nice places available for rent. Still, there are many reasons why someone might want to buy property here. If you want to live here for a long time, it won't take long to realize that renting here sucks. Annual rent increases of 10% are typical. You have to pay the rent upfront and good luck trying to get money back if there is any problem with the property. And you usually have to pay for any maintenance expenses.
So as long as you go into any deal knowing the risks and don't spend more than you can afford to lose, then why not. One problem I see is that people don't get advice and don't bother doing any kind of research, which is the main reason they get into trouble.
I think it is wrong to presume that foreigners will instantly lose in court. It totally depends on the circumstances of the individual case and as [MENTION=19113]Cisco Kid[/MENTION] has pointed out, there is no case law here.
a few comments on your post , my rent has increased once 15% , in 5 years , I pay yearly , I pay only minimal maintenance bulbs and such like , major work is done by the owner , maybe I am fortunate . Buying ?? , in a falling market , falling rupiah , maintenance costs , legality ? , for sure not at the moment
Markit
tel522 wrote.
I dont think there is much sympathy for a few bules and their wishs and hopes re property and land .
I agree but there is masses and masses of sympathy for the owners of the 16,000 + islands in Indonesia and the Bule standing in line wanting to buy them from them.
Get this straight - nobody gives a rat's ass for us Bule but everyone here gets an immediate woody for our money.
Fred2
This is a quote from a lawyer in Jakarta about nominee system.
Indeed all of those agreements above are useless caused those agreements are nothing for security of the ownership of the land in Indonesia by the Expatriate because all of them abuse the law (UUPA) and breaking the law (KUHPerdata or Civil Code of Indonesian).
This package of agreement is used just to make the expatriate feel "happy" because they feel they are secured although they are never secured. This joke is used many people to make all transaction run rapidly as all people want to have what they want instantly like noodle.
Fred2
ACT NO. 5 OF 1960
BASIC REGULATIONS ON AGRARIAN
Article 21.
(1). Only an Indonesia citizen may have rights of ownership
Article 26
(2) Each sale and purchase, exchange, gift, bequest by will and other acts which are
meant to transfer the right of ownership directly or indirectly to a foreign, to a national possessing a foreign nationality in addition to his/her Indonesian nationality in addition to his/her Indonesian nationality, or to a corporation, except those which have been by
the Government as meant in Article 21, clause (2) are not valid by law the provision
that rights of another party incumbent therein remain valid and that all payments which
have been received by the owner may not be reclaimed
Article 25.
The right of ownership may be used as a security of a debt by meant of lien (hak tanggungan).
Things you should read before deciding to buy land in Indonesia
LAW OF THE REPUBLIC OF INDONESIA NUMBER 4 OF 1996
ENCUMBRANCE RIGHT OVER LAND AND LAND-RELATED OBJECTS
Hak Tanggungan Vs. Mortgage,Arie Hutagalung
Nominee Agreement: Legality in Disguise, Indonesian Law Digest
This explains why there is no court cases.
Fred2
It sometimes makes me laugh when people say, the laws will not hold up in international courts, as if Indonesia gives a flying fuuuk.
6 months ago a Chinese billionaire picked up a nice little house on Sydney harbor for Aud 39 million but had to sell it because the sale was illegal under Australian law.
So if people think that Indonesia government would be worried if some idiot in Bali lost there home because a agent said just sign your name here and everything is going to be ok?
If you choose to buy land in Bali great have a nice time but don't complain. Don't tell everyone you own land and no one will ask.
Some people at the K3NI meeting though that the documents they had signed were legal. Would a real estate agent tell a lie?
There are some 200+ case of people having trouble with there nominees.
And how many will get to court...NIL
Markit
[ATTACH type="full" alt="You can't trust quotes on the Internet"]2561[/ATTACH]
Steve Rossell
I thought it was Abe Lincoln that said that.
davita
Come on guys......you are both arguing about who invented the internet (Ben Franklin or Abe Lincoln)......we all know it was Al Gore..:icon_e_biggrin:
Markit
To get back to the original posters question: aaaah feckit - anyone know where I can buy a biggish Frangipani tree cheap?
Markit
I've been asked somewhere else but was always curious myself but does anyone know why the leasehold agreements are broken up into stages (20 + 20 + 30 or variations of this) and not all done together for 70.
Cisco Kid
Very well done article. But when you wrote: "17. Once the lease has been registered...." Could you please elaborate on where leases are registered? Big thanks...
Cisco Kid
A notaris PPAT will tell you what the cap is on a lease to a foreigner. If its a 30 year max and you want more, then a "successive 30 year lease" can be executed concurrently with the initial one, but with a commencement date 30 years after. This adds up to an aggregate of 60 years. For a westerner to lease land, I believe its more secure if he/she has a KITAS. That's my two cents....
Markit
Cisco Kid wroteVery well done article. But when you wrote: "17. Once the lease has been registered...." Could you please elaborate on where leases are registered? Big thanks...
Huh? you on the right forum? Next time perhaps use the "Reply with quote"
Land registry office here in Amlapura, at least for Karangasem - sry can't tell you what it's called in Indo (about 2 paragraphs long and 25 syllables) but ask your local PPAT.
ironhawk
Just a heads up. I recently tried to purchase a villa in a village around 8km south of Ubud but had to cancel the plan because the local banjar asked me to pay 5% of the transaction price to the banjar. The villa is around 4 billion rupiah so I have to pay 200 million rupiah to the banjar. That's crazy! Anyone ever heard banjar rule like this in other area?
They also asked 400 thousand rupiah per month as contribution plus 2million rupiah every Nyepi.
Name of the place is Banjar Gerih, Desa Batuan, Sukawati, Gianyar. Avoid living there!
Markit
ironhawk wroteJust a heads up. I recently tried to purchase a villa in a village around 8km south of Ubud but had to cancel the plan because the local banjar asked me to pay 5% of the transaction price to the banjar. The villa is around 4 billion rupiah so I have to pay 200 million rupiah to the banjar. That's crazy! Anyone ever heard banjar rule like this in other area?
They also asked 400 thousand rupiah per month as contribution plus 2million rupiah every Nyepi.
Name of the place is Banjar Gerih, Desa Batuan, Sukawati, Gianyar. Avoid living there!
Went through that area a couple of weeks ago and was amazed at all the development going on so you are probably well out of it.
You don't mention what the %5 payment was for but it could well have been for access which would not have been excessive and I would advise anyone else to make some provision when buying to insure access to their new property.
Monthly payments to the banjar is becoming standard for Ubud hotels. Supposedly going to the surrounding farmers to motivate them to keep farming and insure the "feel" of the area remains Balinese. This is the first time I've heard it being used on a "normal" buyer or did you want to rent out?
Try Karangasem - I know of 3 great villas going that might be of interest?
davita
Noticed an advert on page 48 on Bali Advertiser...issue 11 May 2016
Free Seminar on Foreign Ownership of Property in Indonesia.
When: Saturday 21 May 2016
Where: Sector, Bali Beach Golf Course, Sanur.
Time: 09:30 am
rsvp: [email]liam@balibusinessbroker.com[/email] before 20 May 2016
complimentary coffee or tea and breakfast available.
Maybe of interest to some...I have no connection to the advertising Company.
Forest Bather
Hi, this discussion seems to have ended with Mr Davita's post on the 11th May 2016. I recall reading in another thread of the sad passing of Mr Davita and would like to offer my belated respects and sympathy to his family and friends who may be reading this.
Can anyone advise if there has been new developments concerning foreigners 'owning' land through a nominee arrangement, or is that not done anymore? I know this issue had been exhaustively discussed before, but has there been any new developments in recent years? Is a long-term lease (is 25 years the maximum duration allowed under Indonesian Law?) with a built-in lease extension still the done thing, or even the preferred option?
Grateful for any advice.
Fred2
Agrarian Law Of 1960 states that only Indonesian citizen can OWN land. That will NEVER change, no mater what anyone will tell you.
So how do you move forward? 25 year lease legal, Hak Tanggungan (mortgage) legal, PMA company Lease legal, Nominee lease, you don't own anything just have agreements with legal owner some documents legal some illegal. Depends on how much money you are willing to lose if things go wrong.
spicyayam
Well, it has been discussed many times before as you say. My own opinion is to go for a 'hak tanggungan', which is where you lend money to a local to buy the property and your name is added to the certificate as a lender.
I have started to see many comments from people that "leases" are the safest for foreigners. The leases that I have seen are pretty weak and more of a long term rental. Cases like if the owner sells the property is not mentioned in the lease. Or the owner uses the certificate to borrow money and the bank comes knocking when they don't pay back the loan. Also, cases where a foreigner has a nominee agreement with an Indonesian and then he "leases" it to another foreigner. The foreigner somehow thinks he is safe because he has a lease, but in actual fact, he is still dependent on the nominee type of agreement.
Hak Pakai is good if you actually plan to live in Indonesia and HGB if you are starting a commercial enterprise like a hotel.
