balibule
IT is fashionable these days for Western leaders to praise Indonesia as a model Muslim democracy. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton [URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/19/washington/19diplo.html"]has declared[/URL], "If you want to know whether Islam, democracy, modernity and women's rights can coexist, go to Indonesia." And last month Britain's prime minister, David Cameron, [URL="http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-04-11/cameron-says-indonesia-s-democracy-offers-hope-to-muslim-world"]lauded Indonesia[/URL] for showing that "religion and democracy need not be in conflict." Tell that to Asia Lumbantoruan, a Christian elder whose congregation outside Jakarta has recently had two of its partially built churches burned down by Islamist militants. He was stabbed by these extremists while defending a third site from attack in September 2010. [URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/22/opinion/no-model-for-muslim-democracy.html?_r=1"]...http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/22/opinion/no-model-for-muslim-democracy.html?_r=1[/URL]
jaffa
IT is fashionable these days for Western leaders to praise Indonesia as a model Muslim democracy. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton [URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/19/washington/19diplo.html"]has declared[/URL], "If you want to know whether Islam, democracy, modernity and women's rights can coexist, go to Indonesia." And last month Britain's prime minister, David Cameron, [URL="http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-04-11/cameron-says-indonesia-s-democracy-offers-hope-to-muslim-world"]lauded Indonesia[/URL] for showing that "religion and democracy need not be in conflict." Tell that to Asia Lumbantoruan, a Christian elder whose congregation outside Jakarta has recently had two of its partially built churches burned down by Islamist militants. He was stabbed by these extremists while defending a third site from attack in September 2010. [URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/22/opinion/no-model-for-muslim-democracy.html?_r=1"]...http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/22/opinion/no-model-for-muslim-democracy.html?_r=1[/URL][/QUOTE]Interesting Article. nice to find some references to Indonesia outside the sometimes myopic world of Asian press. Think it is a little over the top though and somewhat isolated (Papua)Take a look at the most lauded 'democracy' in the Middle East (Israel) and you'll find over 10,000 political prisoners held without any charge or trial and almost every Prime minster since Ben Gurion implicated on some sort of corruption. But the US would have us believe that Israel is a model democracy in a trouble part of the world. And hey, more Jewish synagogues are burnt down in France each year - one of the most tolerant modern countries - than churches in this articleThe issue here is more about secularism and pluralism than democracy. The right to freely practice the religion of your choice without fear of recrimination and for groups within society to maintain their unique identity and beliefs (pluralism). Hindu Bali being within Muslim Indonesia is a fine example. You will find pressure groups in every country who seek to maintain the status quo in terms of lifestyle - sometimes forcefully, sometimes not but I think we'd all be very surprised at what goes on behind the scenes even in Western countries when people feel threatened. Reminds me of a very funny skit by The Chaser (australian comedians) who took an architectural model of a proposed Mosque to Mosman high street (most affluent suburb in Sydney) and asked locals for comments. Check Youtube for a good laugh at so called tolerant Australians when faced with dealing with something new that plays upon fears and mis information (and wealthy ones who should know better!)I think that by and large for a country with rife corruption and 19th century education system, that Indonesia is very tolerant on religion and rights which is baffling given how daft they are with other issues (drugs, over staying visas, etc)But then again I only know what the press tells me ;-0
ronb
Good response Jaffa, and I looked at The Chaser clip you mentioned [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_R6DfwqUSuY]The Chaser's War on Everything - Mosman Mosque - YouTube[/url] and loved it.
hinakos
I for one dont share your opion on Indonesia being religiously tolerant.I thought Indo was maybe heading in the right direction before this:[url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-14330834]BBC News - Indonesia: Anger at 'light' sentences on sect killings[/url]These guys were caught on film (it was on you tube for a while too) murdering in the name of religion, and pretty much walked.It might appear Indo is a tolerant from this tiny corner of Indonesia (Bali).....but spend a few years outside of Bali (or nearby Bali), and you'll soon see.(and if you can ignore the 200+ people that were barbequed inside the Sari Club)Having spent several years in Ambon after the rot that went on the in 2000, and daily driving past the burnt out churches that were left standing , bullet riddled and charred as an expamle to all.....and then several trips to Aceh and seeing the persecution of minorities there, i can only assune that anyone who is of the opinion that Indonesia is a tolerant country has spend the majority of their time in Indonesia in Bali.
balibule
I think that by and large for a country with rife corruption and 19th century education system, that Indonesia is very tolerant on religion and rights which is baffling given how daft they are with other issues (drugs, over staying visas, etc)But then again I only know what the press tells me ;-0[/QUOTE]Did you see this; [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrDpJ1y8rgQ]Ahmadi Muslims martyred in Indonesia - Al Jazeera TV - YouTube[/url]That's not the press, that's actual footage and there's much more of this happening. Hardly a sign of tolerance on religion and rights I would say?
